keris and spirit

A. G. Maisey · 7th May 2007, 10:51 PM

I can give you a parrallel story.

My wife's uncle was a "spiritual advisor" to President Sukarno, and when Sukarno was replaced, President Suharto then relied upon his services. He was a paranormal who could distant view, who made predictions that had a fairly high success rate , and he gave advice as to the best time and place to undertake various activities. He was a strange little man. Looked something like a frog, and in his house he had a "power room", that was full of keris and paintings of himself. He did have enormous presence and force of personality, and there are a lot of stories in the family about some of the things he did, such as facing down an entire battle group of insurgents during the struggle for freedom, insurgents who had just been on a murder rampage, and telling them to go home and leave his neighbourhood alone. Apparently they dispersed and all shuffled off in different directions as if they did not know what they were doing.

Anyway, about 20 years ago Uncle Jan visited us in Australia, and naturally we spent time going through my collection. When he handled one particular keris he could not hold it and threw it to the floor yelling "panas, panas, panas" (panas=hot). He then proceeded to direct me to get it out of the house and get rid of it because it was more evil than he could talk about.

Now the peculiar thing is this:- some time before this incident I was living in a different house and was visited by a Hungarian gentleman who was a psychic and who had a record for doing things like find the bodies of murdered people. He had never seen a keris before seeing mine, and he had no idea what they were. When he handled the keris that Uncle Jan had handled some years later, it flew from his hands and hit the opposite wall. He immediately left the room, would not touch that keris again and requested that I take the keris out of the house while he was there. He would not talk about what he felt.

When I brought this keris into my house for the first time there is a possibility that it moved from where I believe I placed it to a different place on the floor.

I still have this keris, I feel absolutely nothing from it, in fact, I rather like it, it not a keris that I would ever pass on to somebody else.

During my life I have had custody of literally thousands of keris, and I have handled many thousands more. I have never, ever had any sort of unpleasant feeling from a keris, but I sometimes have had a warm, comfortable feeling when handling a keris.

Raden Usman Djogja · 8th May 2007, 05:30 AM

Thank you, Alan & Michel, for sharing stories and experiences. To me, your stories broden my knowledge of keris.

Another story I would like to share. In 2005, I visited Empu Djeno in Yogyakarta. Some people believed that he was the last Empu left in the modern Yogyakarta. At that time, I ordered him to make a keris for me. Expected, that keris would be finished up at the end of the year 2008. Unfortunately, few months ago, I got bad news that Empu Djeno passed away. Now, nothing I can do for knowing whether the keris has finished or not, because, at this moment, I live in Africa.

Even till now, I am still eager to find a small meteorite for keris material. Friends, can you inform me where I can get a genuine meteorite.

Alan, as a pupil of late Empu Suparman, would you please to share your experiences in making a keris, especially, the untold ritual process? Thank you in advance.

A. G. Maisey · 8th May 2007, 08:20 AM

Forgive me Raden, but I do not think that I can comply with your request.

The physical process of making a keris is well documented, and I do not think that my repetition of it would serve any purpose, however if you have any specific queries on any particular part of the process, I am willing to try to answer your specific question.

Regarding ritual and mental preparation, I would prefer not to make any comment at all. I am sure that if you reflect upon this you will understand why.

kai · 8th May 2007, 08:34 AM

Hello Raden,

Quote:

Even till now, I am still eager to find a small meteorite for keris material. Friends, can you inform me where I can get a genuine meteorite.

Obtaining meteorite of the right quality is pretty easy these days. Once you know what you need exactly, just check ebay/etc. and your bring your wallet.

However, the major problem will likely be to find a skilled pandai keris who is able and willing to work with meteorite material...

I'd recommend to check out old threads on this forum like this one:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2033

Use the search function:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search.php?

Don't forget to also tap the old forum:
http://www.vikingsword.com/cgi-bin/s...ntro&default=1

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html

Regards,
Kai

David · 8th May 2007, 02:09 PM

Iron/nickel meteorite is readily available. I was just at a Gem & Mineral show this past weekend and the going rate seemed to be somewhere around .32 cents a gram. That's about $143 USD a pound. I have no idea just how much material you would need to create a keris with all meteorite pamor, but it wouldn't be too outrageous. However...Kai makes a good point. Finding a skilled keris smith who could work the material correctly might be more difficult.
Raden, i believe that even in 2005 most if not all of the work was being done by Empu Djeno's apprentices, with him merely supervising. It is very possible that your keris is still in process. You might want to try to make contact to find out. I assume that if you ordered a keris that some money must have changed hands.

Raden Usman Djogja · 9th May 2007, 01:22 AM

David, Alan & Kai

Let me express happiness before continuing the discussion. This morning, finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning. Simply, I am very happy to know about it.

Alan, your comments have very deep meanings. Okay, I am going to contemplate to grasp what exactly messages you want to deliver.

Kai, I have open threads you reccomended. Sigh... long, but fruitful. Thank you.

David, yes, you are right. Considering his age dan health, Empu Djeno said that he would be assisted by apprentices, especially his foster son, Sungkowo. The main role of Empu Djeno is in supervision, in final steps and, most important for me, in ritual aspects. I agreed with those preconditions.

According to meteorite, the long threads I read (recommended by Kai) has opened broder my knowlegde of keris. However, I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources. Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision
a very fine "court" keris.

David · 9th May 2007, 03:20 AM

If i recall correctly there are approximately 28 grams in an ounce and there are 16 ounces in in a pound. 2.2 pounds equals a kilogram. I am sure there must be a simple conversion equation for this.

At .32 cents a gram a 200 gram meteorite would only be about $64 USD so that's not really that bad is 200 grams is all you need.

I don't know for sure if the type of meteorite i saw this past weekend is ideal for pamor, but it was very dense and highly magnetic.

You can easily find it of eBay, but i am afraid you won't find any Pandai there.

kai · 9th May 2007, 08:25 AM

Hello Raden,

Quote:

finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning.

Congratulations!

Quote:

I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources.

I certainly didn't want to discourage you!

Most meteorites found are small, so you'll most likely have to get a bunch.

You'll want meteorites with a high nickel content. If you know the area it has been collected from, you can search for a published analysis (most meteorites are bits and pieces from larger "mother meteorites" which helps to extrapolate).

Solyom & Solyom mention 50g pure nickel used for their kris. Of course, the content in meteorites is lower and they may possibly need to be forged together with iron and almost certainly extensively refined by repeated forging to obtain malleable metal for pamor work, so you'll need to account for considerable loss of material before the actual blade can be worked on...

BTW, some modern knife makers have also experimented with meteorites as material AFAIK. An Internet search may give you additional hints to avoid possible pit-falls, etc.

Quote:

Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision
a very fine "court" keris.

Am I correct to assume that Mr. Sungkowo will have received extensive teachings also in the mystical/ritual aspects during Empu Djeno's last years?

Maybe Alan can offer some more suggestions?

Regards,
Kai

Raden Usman Djogja · 9th May 2007, 09:43 AM

Friends,

I got a private message. Perhaps, this message was from one of you. I am afraid I can not open it. So, would you please to reemail me through this following email address: oosmaand@yahoo.com. Thank you.

Kai, firstly thank you. Secondly, of course, meteorites will be used only as a tiny part of Keris. My concern is, at least, there will be extraterrestrial content. Even, because of lack of technology, the empu/Smith cannot forge it, then becoming "pamor mungul", it doesn' matter for me.

I have never bought anything through eBay. Is it difficult? Can I pay through Western Union? Now, I don't even have a bank account in Africa. I save money "uder the pillow". Yes, this is Africa. But I enjoy the rest. And, in which eBay, where can I get good quality and reasonable price of meteorite?

As a know, your assumption is right. Smith/Empu Djeno said that he had transferred most of his knowledge to Sungkowo. However, I have never met personally with "Smith" Sungkowo. Morever, I do not see his fully own creation, either. Perhaps, for my own collection, I am quite selective. Usually, I don't buy unstandard Keris such as "nerjang landep, pegat wojo, tugel pesi (does anyone give english translation for these terms, please? I want to learn English, too)"

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

9th May 2007, 01:22 AM	#6
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	I am very happy today David, Alan & Kai Let me express happiness before continuing the discussion. This morning, finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning. Simply, I am very happy to know about it. Alan, your comments have very deep meanings. Okay, I am going to contemplate to grasp what exactly messages you want to deliver. Kai, I have open threads you reccomended. Sigh... long, but fruitful. Thank you. David, yes, you are right. Considering his age dan health, Empu Djeno said that he would be assisted by apprentices, especially his foster son, Sungkowo. The main role of Empu Djeno is in supervision, in final steps and, most important for me, in ritual aspects. I agreed with those preconditions. According to meteorite, the long threads I read (recommended by Kai) has opened broder my knowlegde of keris. However, I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources. Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision a very fine "court" keris.

7th May 2007, 10:51 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I can give you a parrallel story. My wife's uncle was a "spiritual advisor" to President Sukarno, and when Sukarno was replaced, President Suharto then relied upon his services. He was a paranormal who could distant view, who made predictions that had a fairly high success rate , and he gave advice as to the best time and place to undertake various activities. He was a strange little man. Looked something like a frog, and in his house he had a "power room", that was full of keris and paintings of himself. He did have enormous presence and force of personality, and there are a lot of stories in the family about some of the things he did, such as facing down an entire battle group of insurgents during the struggle for freedom, insurgents who had just been on a murder rampage, and telling them to go home and leave his neighbourhood alone. Apparently they dispersed and all shuffled off in different directions as if they did not know what they were doing. Anyway, about 20 years ago Uncle Jan visited us in Australia, and naturally we spent time going through my collection. When he handled one particular keris he could not hold it and threw it to the floor yelling "panas, panas, panas" (panas=hot). He then proceeded to direct me to get it out of the house and get rid of it because it was more evil than he could talk about. Now the peculiar thing is this:- some time before this incident I was living in a different house and was visited by a Hungarian gentleman who was a psychic and who had a record for doing things like find the bodies of murdered people. He had never seen a keris before seeing mine, and he had no idea what they were. When he handled the keris that Uncle Jan had handled some years later, it flew from his hands and hit the opposite wall. He immediately left the room, would not touch that keris again and requested that I take the keris out of the house while he was there. He would not talk about what he felt. When I brought this keris into my house for the first time there is a possibility that it moved from where I believe I placed it to a different place on the floor. I still have this keris, I feel absolutely nothing from it, in fact, I rather like it, it not a keris that I would ever pass on to somebody else. During my life I have had custody of literally thousands of keris, and I have handled many thousands more. I have never, ever had any sort of unpleasant feeling from a keris, but I sometimes have had a warm, comfortable feeling when handling a keris.

8th May 2007, 05:30 AM	#2
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Thank you, Alan & Michel, for sharing stories and experiences. To me, your stories broden my knowledge of keris. Another story I would like to share. In 2005, I visited Empu Djeno in Yogyakarta. Some people believed that he was the last Empu left in the modern Yogyakarta. At that time, I ordered him to make a keris for me. Expected, that keris would be finished up at the end of the year 2008. Unfortunately, few months ago, I got bad news that Empu Djeno passed away. Now, nothing I can do for knowing whether the keris has finished or not, because, at this moment, I live in Africa. Even till now, I am still eager to find a small meteorite for keris material. Friends, can you inform me where I can get a genuine meteorite. Alan, as a pupil of late Empu Suparman, would you please to share your experiences in making a keris, especially, the untold ritual process? Thank you in advance.

8th May 2007, 08:20 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Forgive me Raden, but I do not think that I can comply with your request. The physical process of making a keris is well documented, and I do not think that my repetition of it would serve any purpose, however if you have any specific queries on any particular part of the process, I am willing to try to answer your specific question. Regarding ritual and mental preparation, I would prefer not to make any comment at all. I am sure that if you reflect upon this you will understand why.

8th May 2007, 02:09 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Iron/nickel meteorite is readily available. I was just at a Gem & Mineral show this past weekend and the going rate seemed to be somewhere around .32 cents a gram. That's about $143 USD a pound. I have no idea just how much material you would need to create a keris with all meteorite pamor, but it wouldn't be too outrageous. However...Kai makes a good point. Finding a skilled keris smith who could work the material correctly might be more difficult. Raden, i believe that even in 2005 most if not all of the work was being done by Empu Djeno's apprentices, with him merely supervising. It is very possible that your keris is still in process. You might want to try to make contact to find out. I assume that if you ordered a keris that some money must have changed hands.

9th May 2007, 03:20 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	If i recall correctly there are approximately 28 grams in an ounce and there are 16 ounces in in a pound. 2.2 pounds equals a kilogram. I am sure there must be a simple conversion equation for this. At .32 cents a gram a 200 gram meteorite would only be about $64 USD so that's not really that bad is 200 grams is all you need. I don't know for sure if the type of meteorite i saw this past weekend is ideal for pamor, but it was very dense and highly magnetic. You can easily find it of eBay, but i am afraid you won't find any Pandai there.

9th May 2007, 09:43 AM	#9
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Friends, I got a private message. Perhaps, this message was from one of you. I am afraid I can not open it. So, would you please to reemail me through this following email address: oosmaand@yahoo.com. Thank you. Kai, firstly thank you. Secondly, of course, meteorites will be used only as a tiny part of Keris. My concern is, at least, there will be extraterrestrial content. Even, because of lack of technology, the empu/Smith cannot forge it, then becoming "pamor mungul", it doesn' matter for me. I have never bought anything through eBay. Is it difficult? Can I pay through Western Union? Now, I don't even have a bank account in Africa. I save money "uder the pillow". Yes, this is Africa. But I enjoy the rest. And, in which eBay, where can I get good quality and reasonable price of meteorite? As a know, your assumption is right. Smith/Empu Djeno said that he had transferred most of his knowledge to Sungkowo. However, I have never met personally with "Smith" Sungkowo. Morever, I do not see his fully own creation, either. Perhaps, for my own collection, I am quite selective. Usually, I don't buy unstandard Keris such as "nerjang landep, pegat wojo, tugel pesi (does anyone give english translation for these terms, please? I want to learn English, too)" David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.