Is it Raja Gundala?

brekele · 2nd May 2007, 12:58 PM

Dave, yes of course i can share with you about where and when i believed this blade is ASLIES (ASLIES=ASLI+YES). Sorry for using my own word, because your word ORIGINATES wasn't in dictionary.

Friend of mine brought this blade by the time Lombok's coffee morning is not finish yet. The blade was dirty, first exprescion in head was stranged about this blade and then suspicion for few seconds. About 2 minits later my feeling was changed and starting to belived that the blade is old (80%).
And then someone clean that blade.
After cleaned then of course i believed the blade is old.
Dave, i looked again...from Pasikutan, i guess this blade is tangguh nom-noman
(Bali).
Also according to blade's material + feeling of my NEW KNOWLEDGE about keris.
(Finally, surely answer is came out by other keris forum in Indonesia).

Dave, i knew some of keris dealers from Madura based in my hometown Surabaya (Jawa). I hang out with them and learn.
So, I knew their blades Dave.
Many blades are good too (hi...just my taste).

BTW, Dave....honestly i like to read words of those doctors keris .
but you just broke them up

Ya, It's oke. I knew you are the bos in your own forum beside Rick.

David · 2nd May 2007, 02:23 PM

"Originate" means place of origin; where is it from? Do you think this keris was made in Lombok, Bali, Jawa....? You say that it is "from Pasikutan", but "Pasikutan" as i understand it is a form of measurement, not a place (from the tip of the finger to the elbow), so perhaps this is just a mistake you made in translation. I don't think we can successfully apply the concept of tangguh to this blade, especially if it did not originate from Jawa. Still a nom-nomon keris would be considered by many to be a relatively recent keris, wouldn't it?
As i already stated, you might well be correct about this blade, and you are certainly welcome to your opinion. I still remain suspicious, especially given the very unusual blade form, one i have never seen before with this mixture of features. This is a tendency i have noted in some modrn keris making, combining features to form new "dhapur" which have led us to a major question in this thread: What do we call it?
I am a bit confused by your last remarks. I am glad you are enjoying "reading the words of the doctors keris" , whoever they are

, but i have hardly done anything to discourge the conversation in this thread. You posted these keris and i have been addressing my comment to them in an attempt to answer your questions, but the wide range of discussion here, especially tangents on language and usage, have been welcomed and encouraged by me. I have done nothing to break them up. I am sorry if you do not like or disagree with my personal observations, but they are what they are. If you have any problems with my moderator skills please feel free to discuss them with me in private messaging.

brekele · 2nd May 2007, 02:37 PM

Ohh no...!, Dave please ...this is too long for me to understand.
Your words is difficult.
I'm not good in English, please use simple words

.

David · 2nd May 2007, 06:34 PM

Sorry Brekele, i will do my best.

Simply put, i still think this last keris you have posted is a fairly recent one. You do not. That is OK, we all believe what we will.

I am still curious where you think this blade was made. Lombok, Bali, Jawa, Madura...??? Pasikutan is the length of the keris so it is not from there.

Tangguh is a system meant for high level Jawa keris. I don't think it can be properly applied to your keris. Even so, Nom-Noman is a fairly recent tangguh.
When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem? If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money. Ask yourself (don't tell us

)how much you paid for it.
I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings.

brekele · 3rd May 2007, 08:05 AM

When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem?

Dave, I told you before, I was also suspicion when first time I saw it because never see keris blade like this before.

If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money.

Dave, I bought this blade from a friend who dont know much about keris. But he know if a keris is old or new, that's all. He is more a keris villages hunter in Lombok, And sell keris he got to those local keris collectors/big dealers.

Ask yourself (don't tell us

)how much you paid for it.

Of course I won't tell you again, no more mistakes for twice.
And I do not need to ask my self for price of this kind of blade, because I deal with a right guy and fair/perfect price.
Now, this keris is sold for fair price also.
Actually, there are two pieces of this kind of blade from my friend. The other one is smaller also with ada ada's luk shape. He got those blades from a big balinese (farmer) family in Lombok.

I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings.

[/QUOTE]

Yes yes Dave, I will ask you something because some tools in your forum stil confused me. But I will try to find out first before I ask you.

Dave, sorry for my English a bit confused you.
I try to correct it.

It's not from Pasikutan but according Pasikutan (i hope better now).
Pasikutan= showing character of keris in every era/tangguh.

Hi Alan, how are you today?

Hi P.Datu, how are you today?

Hi Alam, long time no see? Are you stil meditation or learn those malay's song?
hmmm...Siti Nurhalisa had good songs

David · 3rd May 2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brekele

Yes yes Dave, I will ask you something because some tools in your forum stil confused me. But I will try to find out first before I ask you.

Yes, please fell free...though i am still learning some of thes etools myself.

Don't worry, if i don't know how something works Rick will for sure.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2007, 08:57 PM

I have so far stayed out of this discussion, principally because I cannot see much point to it. However, right now it seems to be going in circles, so I will say a word or two.

When I see a picture of a blade, especially an internet picture, what I see is only form.

I know that I cannot rely on the colour I see; I have no idea as to its weight, its texture, its topographic relief. I can sometimes get some sort of an idea of the quality and style of workmanship, but not often.

From what I can see on the computer screen, all I can really trust is the form of the blade.

The blade that is being discussed appears to be a fairly large blade with a twist pamor and some unusual features .

The pesi is distorted and distressed.

Overall condition appears to be good with some minor distress.

We know that keris culture in Lombok is not so deeply entrenched in formal standards as it is in Jawa and Bali.

We know that the people of Lombok often have a preference for blades which display unusual features.

We know that this twist pamor which on Lombok is called "tambangan badung" is highly favoured by the people of Lombok.

On the face of it, this keris could well be an original Lombok blade.

However.

The point at which the pesi enters the gonjo appears to display the characteristic decline of current era keris with a Madura heritage.

The pesi is extremely distressed, far too much so for normal aging.

We know that the Madura craftsmen use published photos as source material for new creations.

We know that it is easier to sell a keris that is a little bit out of the ordinary in form, irrespective of quality of execution.

In Djelengga we can find pictures of Lombok keris showing similar features to the features of the keris under discussion.

We have been told how and where the keris was sourced, but this must be disregarded for the same reasons that we must disregard all undocumented stories when we undertake an objective assessment.

To sum up:- this is a keris with some unusual features which might be a recent creation, and equally might be an original Lombok keris, but upon the evidence presented which is only a series of internet pictures, I for one am not able to form an opinion either way.

May I suggest that we simply acknowledge that this is a rather unique keris , and even though the workmanship is fairly shoddy, and condition does leave something to be desired, it is worthy of collection if for no other reason than its previously mentioned unique features.

2nd May 2007, 12:58 PM	#1
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Dave, yes of course i can share with you about where and when i believed this blade is ASLIES (ASLIES=ASLI+YES). Sorry for using my own word, because your word ORIGINATES wasn't in dictionary. Friend of mine brought this blade by the time Lombok's coffee morning is not finish yet. The blade was dirty, first exprescion in head was stranged about this blade and then suspicion for few seconds. About 2 minits later my feeling was changed and starting to belived that the blade is old (80%). And then someone clean that blade. After cleaned then of course i believed the blade is old. Dave, i looked again...from Pasikutan, i guess this blade is tangguh nom-noman (Bali). Also according to blade's material + feeling of my NEW KNOWLEDGE about keris. (Finally, surely answer is came out by other keris forum in Indonesia). Dave, i knew some of keris dealers from Madura based in my hometown Surabaya (Jawa). I hang out with them and learn. So, I knew their blades Dave. Many blades are good too (hi...just my taste). BTW, Dave....honestly i like to read words of those doctors keris . but you just broke them up Ya, It's oke. I knew you are the bos in your own forum beside Rick. Last edited by brekele; 2nd May 2007 at 01:33 PM.

2nd May 2007, 02:37 PM	#3
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Ohh no...!, Dave please ...this is too long for me to understand. Your words is difficult. I'm not good in English, please use simple words . Last edited by brekele; 2nd May 2007 at 05:49 PM.

3rd May 2007, 08:05 AM	#5
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem? Dave, I told you before, I was also suspicion when first time I saw it because never see keris blade like this before. If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money. Dave, I bought this blade from a friend who dont know much about keris. But he know if a keris is old or new, that's all. He is more a keris villages hunter in Lombok, And sell keris he got to those local keris collectors/big dealers. Ask yourself (don't tell us )how much you paid for it. Of course I won't tell you again, no more mistakes for twice. And I do not need to ask my self for price of this kind of blade, because I deal with a right guy and fair/perfect price. Now, this keris is sold for fair price also. Actually, there are two pieces of this kind of blade from my friend. The other one is smaller also with ada ada's luk shape. He got those blades from a big balinese (farmer) family in Lombok. I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings. [/QUOTE] Yes yes Dave, I will ask you something because some tools in your forum stil confused me. But I will try to find out first before I ask you. Dave, sorry for my English a bit confused you. I try to correct it. It's not from Pasikutan but according Pasikutan (i hope better now). Pasikutan= showing character of keris in every era/tangguh. Hi Alan, how are you today? Hi P.Datu, how are you today? Hi Alam, long time no see? Are you stil meditation or learn those malay's song? hmmm...Siti Nurhalisa had good songs Last edited by brekele; 3rd May 2007 at 08:23 AM.

2nd May 2007, 02:23 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	"Originate" means place of origin; where is it from? Do you think this keris was made in Lombok, Bali, Jawa....? You say that it is "from Pasikutan", but "Pasikutan" as i understand it is a form of measurement, not a place (from the tip of the finger to the elbow), so perhaps this is just a mistake you made in translation. I don't think we can successfully apply the concept of tangguh to this blade, especially if it did not originate from Jawa. Still a nom-nomon keris would be considered by many to be a relatively recent keris, wouldn't it? As i already stated, you might well be correct about this blade, and you are certainly welcome to your opinion. I still remain suspicious, especially given the very unusual blade form, one i have never seen before with this mixture of features. This is a tendency i have noted in some modrn keris making, combining features to form new "dhapur" which have led us to a major question in this thread: What do we call it? I am a bit confused by your last remarks. I am glad you are enjoying "reading the words of the doctors keris" , whoever they are , but i have hardly done anything to discourge the conversation in this thread. You posted these keris and i have been addressing my comment to them in an attempt to answer your questions, but the wide range of discussion here, especially tangents on language and usage, have been welcomed and encouraged by me. I have done nothing to break them up. I am sorry if you do not like or disagree with my personal observations, but they are what they are. If you have any problems with my moderator skills please feel free to discuss them with me in private messaging.

2nd May 2007, 06:34 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Sorry Brekele, i will do my best. Simply put, i still think this last keris you have posted is a fairly recent one. You do not. That is OK, we all believe what we will. I am still curious where you think this blade was made. Lombok, Bali, Jawa, Madura...??? Pasikutan is the length of the keris so it is not from there. Tangguh is a system meant for high level Jawa keris. I don't think it can be properly applied to your keris. Even so, Nom-Noman is a fairly recent tangguh. When a keris contains many unusual ricikan as this one does it makes me suspicious. Have you ever seen another keris in this form before? Is it in anyone's Pakem? If it truly is old and rare i think any smart keris dealer could have sold it for quite a lot of money. Ask yourself (don't tell us )how much you paid for it. I hope this is clearer. Please ask questions if you don't understand my meanings.

3rd May 2007, 08:57 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I have so far stayed out of this discussion, principally because I cannot see much point to it. However, right now it seems to be going in circles, so I will say a word or two. When I see a picture of a blade, especially an internet picture, what I see is only form. I know that I cannot rely on the colour I see; I have no idea as to its weight, its texture, its topographic relief. I can sometimes get some sort of an idea of the quality and style of workmanship, but not often. From what I can see on the computer screen, all I can really trust is the form of the blade. The blade that is being discussed appears to be a fairly large blade with a twist pamor and some unusual features . The pesi is distorted and distressed. Overall condition appears to be good with some minor distress. We know that keris culture in Lombok is not so deeply entrenched in formal standards as it is in Jawa and Bali. We know that the people of Lombok often have a preference for blades which display unusual features. We know that this twist pamor which on Lombok is called "tambangan badung" is highly favoured by the people of Lombok. On the face of it, this keris could well be an original Lombok blade. However. The point at which the pesi enters the gonjo appears to display the characteristic decline of current era keris with a Madura heritage. The pesi is extremely distressed, far too much so for normal aging. We know that the Madura craftsmen use published photos as source material for new creations. We know that it is easier to sell a keris that is a little bit out of the ordinary in form, irrespective of quality of execution. In Djelengga we can find pictures of Lombok keris showing similar features to the features of the keris under discussion. We have been told how and where the keris was sourced, but this must be disregarded for the same reasons that we must disregard all undocumented stories when we undertake an objective assessment. To sum up:- this is a keris with some unusual features which might be a recent creation, and equally might be an original Lombok keris, but upon the evidence presented which is only a series of internet pictures, I for one am not able to form an opinion either way. May I suggest that we simply acknowledge that this is a rather unique keris , and even though the workmanship is fairly shoddy, and condition does leave something to be desired, it is worthy of collection if for no other reason than its previously mentioned unique features.