Keris gamble, fingers crossed?

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2007, 11:52 AM

I was surprised how short the tang is 40mm. The blade is also too thin to be a fighting weapon? I am happy to spend money on African special weapons but this just makes me feel a little uncomfortable. The patterns on the blade are very swirly. The ring thingy has some damage which is made of copper and brass. The handle is rather dainty carved from some dark horn with a nice patina. There has also been a patch, fill in? repair with a gum substance, to the wood scabbard just where it meets the metal sleeve. As far as I can tell looking inside and outside, this happened at the time it was being made or soon afterwards. I do not know if I should put a new bit of cloth round the tang to stop the handle turning round. I do no think it is the original cloth.

David · 9th April 2007, 01:45 PM

Well Tim, i think it all depends on just how much of the folding stuff you actually laid out for this keris. To me it looks like a genuinely old Jawa keris in Dyogyakarta dress. The pendok (the metal thingy on the sheath

) looks like a nicely reprossed white brass or mamas. The blade may be thin now, but keep in mind that it has probably seen many years of acid washing and was no doubt much stouter when it was made, so i wouldn't count it out as a usable blade. The pamor looks like it might be the very popular wos wutah (scattered rice). I think it is a very collectable old piece, but it doesn't look like anything too extraordinary to me. The hilt does look nice with a nice patina. Are you sure it is horn and not some dark wood?

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2007, 03:18 PM

Thanks David. Well it is probably around 11 portions.

The handle is wood I think.

David · 9th April 2007, 03:50 PM

Yep, i figured the hilt was probably wood. Looks like it is a good example of that form though.
To answer your other question, if i were you i would feel free to add abit more cloth or yarn to stablize the hilt. Unfortunately, over time tangs often break or are foreshortened, making keeping the hilt in place even more difficult. Be careful to add material slowly to the tang. You want the hilt to stay in place, but to don't want to crack the wood.

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2007, 04:26 PM

To be honest now I have had time to really look. I am more than a little dissapointed with it. The handle is already cracked and have a feeling that the bottom section of the blade has been gunged up with glue. The tang is so short and tapered I do not think I will ever be able to stop it turning so easily. I do not have much luck with these things, I should and will stick to what I do know about and have more of a feel for. It is a pain in the bum learning these lessons, so late in game so to speak. ouch

Henk · 9th April 2007, 06:29 PM

Tim,

Can you show us a picture of the tang or pesi as the tang of a keris is called?
And maybe also a picture of the crack in the ukiran and the glued section.

As David said, it appears as a very nice Djogyakarta keris with an old blade. A thin blade is not very uncommon for an old kerisblade.

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2007, 06:52 PM

The blade is lovely. It seems to have had a hard life in the hands of a previous owner. I can see the problem, the hole in the handle is just to large. So the resort to glue. The picture looking up the tang shows that it is all stuffed up with muck which is easier to see in the flesh. The tang being so short and tapered it really needs a new handle.
I have put more glue muck in the handle but still cannot get acceptable pressure on the tang with such a large hole.

kai · 9th April 2007, 11:18 PM

Hello Tim,

Quote:

The handle is already cracked and have a feeling that the bottom section of the blade has been gunged up with glue.

These seem to be hairline cracks from age - nothing too serious but avoid too much pressure (which is also true for apparently intact keris hilts).

It's also not uncommon for gonjo of old, washed blades to become loose and get reattached (although the cheap glue used by many dealers certainly isn't a traditional nor decent choice).

Quote:

The tang is so short and tapered I do not think I will ever be able to stop it turning so easily.

The pesi is obviously shorter than it used to be originally. However, the current tradition (especially on Jawa and most collectors worldwide) to use some piece of cloth or threads to wrap the pesi until it just holds the hilt will always allow the blade to turn. Since you basically hold the blade rather than just the hilt, you could still use many old keris as a weapon; however, in unaltered examples from the "good, old days" when and where they apparently were utilized more frequently as weapons you often see their hilts firmly attached with some mixture(s) of natural resins/pitch/etc. BTW, a flimsy tang can always be repaired which is often done in Jawa AFAIK.

If you like the blade, don't quibble too much with the remainder - neither the pesi nor the larger hole of the ukiran would be considered a fatal flaw in Jawa. Obviously, this keris is not perfect: a perfect, old keris will cost you the equivalent of one or more estates rather than meals...

Establishing what you really look for in a blade (and getting some exposure to the many different keris styles) will certainly help you to get comfortable in the grey zone most of us mortals are stuck with collecting...

Regards,
Kai

David · 9th April 2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

If you like the blade, don't quibble too much with the remainder - neither the pesi nor the larger hole of the ukiran would be considered a fatal flaw in Jawa. Obviously, this keris is not perfect: a perfect, old keris will cost you the equivalent of one or more estates rather than meals...

Establishing what you really look for in a blade (and getting some exposure to the many different keris styles) will certainly help you to get comfortable in the grey zone most of us mortals are stuck with collecting...

Well put Kai. And i agree that the crack in the hilt is hairline and nothing to particularly worry about. As Kai points out, a fine old keris in supurb condition will cost you a bit more than a few portins of fish & chips. As with any keris the bottom line is do you like it, does it call to you.
When you attach a piece to lenghten your pesi is called disambung and it is an acceptable way to salvage an old keris. I would say that if you were really into renovating this old boy you could also get a new mendak (the metal ring thingy that is missing some bits

) for it. You could probably replace it with a very similar style. It is certainly the easiest improvement you could make and it wouldn't set you back more than a few portions.

9th April 2007, 11:52 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I was surprised how short the tang is 40mm. The blade is also too thin to be a fighting weapon? I am happy to spend money on African special weapons but this just makes me feel a little uncomfortable. The patterns on the blade are very swirly. The ring thingy has some damage which is made of copper and brass. The handle is rather dainty carved from some dark horn with a nice patina. There has also been a patch, fill in? repair with a gum substance, to the wood scabbard just where it meets the metal sleeve. As far as I can tell looking inside and outside, this happened at the time it was being made or soon afterwards. I do not know if I should put a new bit of cloth round the tang to stop the handle turning round. I do no think it is the original cloth. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th April 2007 at 12:03 PM.

9th April 2007, 01:45 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well Tim, i think it all depends on just how much of the folding stuff you actually laid out for this keris. To me it looks like a genuinely old Jawa keris in Dyogyakarta dress. The pendok (the metal thingy on the sheath ) looks like a nicely reprossed white brass or mamas. The blade may be thin now, but keep in mind that it has probably seen many years of acid washing and was no doubt much stouter when it was made, so i wouldn't count it out as a usable blade. The pamor looks like it might be the very popular wos wutah (scattered rice). I think it is a very collectable old piece, but it doesn't look like anything too extraordinary to me. The hilt does look nice with a nice patina. Are you sure it is horn and not some dark wood?

9th April 2007, 03:18 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Thanks David. Well it is probably around 11 portions. The handle is wood I think.

9th April 2007, 03:50 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Yep, i figured the hilt was probably wood. Looks like it is a good example of that form though. To answer your other question, if i were you i would feel free to add abit more cloth or yarn to stablize the hilt. Unfortunately, over time tangs often break or are foreshortened, making keeping the hilt in place even more difficult. Be careful to add material slowly to the tang. You want the hilt to stay in place, but to don't want to crack the wood.

9th April 2007, 04:26 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	To be honest now I have had time to really look. I am more than a little dissapointed with it. The handle is already cracked and have a feeling that the bottom section of the blade has been gunged up with glue. The tang is so short and tapered I do not think I will ever be able to stop it turning so easily. I do not have much luck with these things, I should and will stick to what I do know about and have more of a feel for. It is a pain in the bum learning these lessons, so late in game so to speak. ouch

9th April 2007, 06:29 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Tim, Can you show us a picture of the tang or pesi as the tang of a keris is called? And maybe also a picture of the crack in the ukiran and the glued section. As David said, it appears as a very nice Djogyakarta keris with an old blade. A thin blade is not very uncommon for an old kerisblade.

9th April 2007, 06:52 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	The blade is lovely. It seems to have had a hard life in the hands of a previous owner. I can see the problem, the hole in the handle is just to large. So the resort to glue. The picture looking up the tang shows that it is all stuffed up with muck which is easier to see in the flesh. The tang being so short and tapered it really needs a new handle. I have put more glue muck in the handle but still cannot get acceptable pressure on the tang with such a large hole.