Formosa/Taiwan, dodgy pic gamble

paolo · 8th April 2007, 11:50 PM

My one, open scabbard, seems to me Taiwan, Rukai tribe.
Paolo

paolo · 8th April 2007, 11:52 PM

Sorry, here are the pics

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2007, 10:46 AM

Oh dear that's nice. Careful you might get me over stimulated

and make my moustache twitch

, that would never do. If mine is okay then it has only a very simple handle which is not unknown.

Andrew · 9th April 2007, 02:05 PM

Good luck on this one Tim. Given the recent market on these things, two portions (even with large chips) is a great bargain!

yuanzhumin · 9th April 2007, 04:24 PM

Hello all of you,

I'm right back to Taipei from few days off spent in a bamboo hut, in the central mountains of Cebu, in the Philippines, at a friend's place ! It was beautiful ! By the way, I saw there two nice knives in the hands of local mountains people. I'm sure many of you would have died for these blades !

Tim, seing your picture, I think that the piece you bought on Ebay is from Taiwan, definitly from the Paiwan indigenous group, in the south of the island. That's the good news. The bad one is that I don't think it is very old, and I have doubt on its authenticity. I mean that I am not sure it was made by the Paiwan in order to be used by themselves, but my impression could be wrong. The picture is not very clear.

First, I would advise to read the excellent article written by Philip Tom (Hello Philip !) and Sherrod Anderson. It is the best on this subject that is so seldomly documented. Thanks Rick for the link !

Few positive elements for you, Tim :
-the scabbard is straight and ends with a snake head typical from the southern tribes (Paiwan, Rukai and Puyuma)
-it is open on one side and the blade is maintained in its channel by wires.
-the sizes and proportions appear to be correct.
-in addition, the red pigment on the scabbard is common on the ceremonial knives from these tribes.

NOT so positive elements :
-the string is attached to a kind of rectangular wood buckle that is not usual in these knives. Usually, the string is attached trough two holes made in the scabbard. You have good examples of what I say on the knives displayed by Rick and Paolo in the same thread.
-we don't see much of the snake head carving at the end of the scabbard, but it appears to be quite rough. If this knife is a ceremonial one as some elements of its aspects would lead to think, the fact that the carving on it is not delicate or more expressive, like the fine carvings or motives depicted in the article of Anderson and Tom or seen on Rick's and Paolo's knives, means something is wrong.
-This remark on the carving is valid also for the hilt, always finely decorated.
-Then going back to the shape of the hilt, I would be inclined to think like Ian (thanks for paging me, Ian) that it is too round to have been made for a tribal purpose.

All this brings me to the last part, the blade.

Tim, I don't see very well the blade on your knife, but it appears to me that it is not typical from the southern tribes - what could be bad or... good, depending on the case. In this case, we can compare your blade to Paolo's one.

Both blades are untypical as they seem to have a double bevel. In fact as it is said in the article already mentioned, the blades of the Paiwan have one bevel "much like the edge profile on a carpenter's chisel". Moreover, the tip of the blade should not be curved but straight like on Rick's example.

This fact confirm to me that Tim's knife has been done in a different way, not traditional at all.

So, Paolo, your knife has been done in a way also that is not traditional, but don't panic, this is a very good knife. I even saw it on sale one or two years ago on the A... website and I wanted to buy it myself. I was offering a price, when I was told that it was already sold. So you are the one that got it !

It was not cheap, if I remember well. But I think it worth it, as it is quite a special knife. Yours is form the Rukai group, as you mentioned, and is a ceremonial knife. But why is it also a little different in the style of the carvings and in the shape of the blade when compared to the other Rukai ceremonial knives, like Rick's one in the thread, for example ?

Because it is a fusion knife : this knife has been made for a tribal chief that collaborated with the Japanese and was so proud of it that he had his blade made from what could have been originally a Japanese saber or produced from a usual metal that would have been worked in the shape of a Japanese saber. You have to remember that Taiwan was a Japanese colony from 1895 to 1945. So this knife is definitly from before the Japanese departure. At that time, the Japanese authorities were courting the tribal chiefs and offering them trips to Japan and... medals. A medal is exactly the kind of decoration that we can see as motives on the iron staples bridging the open side of the scabbard. So congratulations, Paolo ! Quite an original finding !

Tim, please, share with us better pics of your knife when you receive it. Ah, one more thing for you, Tim, concerning your other Taiwanese knife, the Atayal knife that you showed me once : I can tell you now it is coming from the Truku (Taroko) tribe, one of the groups composing the Atayal, This group having the particularity to cherish the red color that, they were believing, could protect them from evil.

yuanzhumin

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2007, 04:38 PM

Thanks for the information. As soon as I have it I will post pictures. I have just a little hope that it is a good one, as we find that there are always some exceptions to the norm. The handle is off putting I agree. It was very very cheap.

paolo · 9th April 2007, 07:31 PM

Thank You yuanzhumin for the lot of informations You gave about the Taiwan swords. The blade of my sword is single edged, and the cross section is concave - convex (like a mandau). Also I noted the difference in the carving style between my one and the few I saw in the rare (and bad) pictures on some books I have.
Paolo

8th April 2007, 11:52 PM	#2
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Sorry, here are the pics Attached Images

9th April 2007, 10:46 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Oh dear that's nice. Careful you might get me over stimulated and make my moustache twitch , that would never do. If mine is okay then it has only a very simple handle which is not unknown. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th April 2007 at 11:21 AM.

8th April 2007, 11:50 PM	#1
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	My one, open scabbard, seems to me Taiwan, Rukai tribe. Paolo

9th April 2007, 02:05 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Good luck on this one Tim. Given the recent market on these things, two portions (even with large chips) is a great bargain!

9th April 2007, 04:24 PM	#5
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Hello all of you, I'm right back to Taipei from few days off spent in a bamboo hut, in the central mountains of Cebu, in the Philippines, at a friend's place ! It was beautiful ! By the way, I saw there two nice knives in the hands of local mountains people. I'm sure many of you would have died for these blades ! Tim, seing your picture, I think that the piece you bought on Ebay is from Taiwan, definitly from the Paiwan indigenous group, in the south of the island. That's the good news. The bad one is that I don't think it is very old, and I have doubt on its authenticity. I mean that I am not sure it was made by the Paiwan in order to be used by themselves, but my impression could be wrong. The picture is not very clear. First, I would advise to read the excellent article written by Philip Tom (Hello Philip !) and Sherrod Anderson. It is the best on this subject that is so seldomly documented. Thanks Rick for the link ! Few positive elements for you, Tim : -the scabbard is straight and ends with a snake head typical from the southern tribes (Paiwan, Rukai and Puyuma) -it is open on one side and the blade is maintained in its channel by wires. -the sizes and proportions appear to be correct. -in addition, the red pigment on the scabbard is common on the ceremonial knives from these tribes. NOT so positive elements : -the string is attached to a kind of rectangular wood buckle that is not usual in these knives. Usually, the string is attached trough two holes made in the scabbard. You have good examples of what I say on the knives displayed by Rick and Paolo in the same thread. -we don't see much of the snake head carving at the end of the scabbard, but it appears to be quite rough. If this knife is a ceremonial one as some elements of its aspects would lead to think, the fact that the carving on it is not delicate or more expressive, like the fine carvings or motives depicted in the article of Anderson and Tom or seen on Rick's and Paolo's knives, means something is wrong. -This remark on the carving is valid also for the hilt, always finely decorated. -Then going back to the shape of the hilt, I would be inclined to think like Ian (thanks for paging me, Ian) that it is too round to have been made for a tribal purpose. All this brings me to the last part, the blade. Tim, I don't see very well the blade on your knife, but it appears to me that it is not typical from the southern tribes - what could be bad or... good, depending on the case. In this case, we can compare your blade to Paolo's one. Both blades are untypical as they seem to have a double bevel. In fact as it is said in the article already mentioned, the blades of the Paiwan have one bevel "much like the edge profile on a carpenter's chisel". Moreover, the tip of the blade should not be curved but straight like on Rick's example. This fact confirm to me that Tim's knife has been done in a different way, not traditional at all. So, Paolo, your knife has been done in a way also that is not traditional, but don't panic, this is a very good knife. I even saw it on sale one or two years ago on the A... website and I wanted to buy it myself. I was offering a price, when I was told that it was already sold. So you are the one that got it ! It was not cheap, if I remember well. But I think it worth it, as it is quite a special knife. Yours is form the Rukai group, as you mentioned, and is a ceremonial knife. But why is it also a little different in the style of the carvings and in the shape of the blade when compared to the other Rukai ceremonial knives, like Rick's one in the thread, for example ? Because it is a fusion knife : this knife has been made for a tribal chief that collaborated with the Japanese and was so proud of it that he had his blade made from what could have been originally a Japanese saber or produced from a usual metal that would have been worked in the shape of a Japanese saber. You have to remember that Taiwan was a Japanese colony from 1895 to 1945. So this knife is definitly from before the Japanese departure. At that time, the Japanese authorities were courting the tribal chiefs and offering them trips to Japan and... medals. A medal is exactly the kind of decoration that we can see as motives on the iron staples bridging the open side of the scabbard. So congratulations, Paolo ! Quite an original finding ! Tim, please, share with us better pics of your knife when you receive it. Ah, one more thing for you, Tim, concerning your other Taiwanese knife, the Atayal knife that you showed me once : I can tell you now it is coming from the Truku (Taroko) tribe, one of the groups composing the Atayal, This group having the particularity to cherish the red color that, they were believing, could protect them from evil. yuanzhumin

9th April 2007, 04:38 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Thanks for the information. As soon as I have it I will post pictures. I have just a little hope that it is a good one, as we find that there are always some exceptions to the norm. The handle is off putting I agree. It was very very cheap.

9th April 2007, 07:31 PM	#7
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Thank You yuanzhumin for the lot of informations You gave about the Taiwan swords. The blade of my sword is single edged, and the cross section is concave - convex (like a mandau). Also I noted the difference in the carving style between my one and the few I saw in the rare (and bad) pictures on some books I have. Paolo