Need information on this item

Mick · 24th February 2005, 09:29 PM

Gentlemen

Here is a piece that I picked up almost forty years ago which I have not been able to identify.

I am not even sure that the item is an ensemble and is not made up of separate pieces. The blade was eroded on the lower edge from about the 11 inch mark on the ruler and I told the man who was doing the patination not to touch it as I wanted the original shape of the blade to be seen. Of course, he didn’t do what I wanted and shaped that blade so that it could be sharpened which he proceeded to do. If you project the curve of the lower edge from its origin to the eleven inch mark forward you will get a good idea of the original shape.

The original ferrule (or salute if you will) was a crappy made up piece similar to the one that exists now which is in gold (which I commissioned). The detail work on the ivory cutting is well done, but not matching between the top of the sheath and the grip. Both designs are different which is one of the reasons that it may be a made up item. I am also not sure that this blade was meant to go into this sheath although there are no signs of recutting the mouth of the sheath to accept the blade which fits well. The sheath also showed that it was prepared for a Balinese backing plate which I also commissioned and had installed.

The pattern is pamor applied over a kern of steel which shows along the top edge and might be reminiscent of old east java work.

All and all it shows that a lot of money and effort went into the ensemble both before I got it and after, but I still don’t have any idea of its origin.

capt.smash · 24th February 2005, 11:11 PM

Wow thats lovely... beautiful pattern

Conogre · 24th February 2005, 11:34 PM

That is simply beautiful beyond words.
Yours is the only collection that I know of where one has to stop and remind yourself that these are weapons, so easy is it to get lost in all of the intricate artistry, and while the work in horn, ivory and wood is awesome, the results drawn out of the metal are unbelievable.

It's the most unique method of theft controll I've ever seen as well.........if a burglar were to break in, by the time the police arrived and shouted to get his hands in the air, his reply would be,"Shhhhh! Hey, look at that one over there!!! What is that one?"
Mike

Rick · 25th February 2005, 02:27 AM

Mick , Van Zonneveld's book has an example that is in the same general vein as yours .
It is shown on the back dustjacket in a demon form (Rangda) keris stand ; the same picture is also in the book on pg. 112 . Van Zonneveld seems to attribute both to Bali ; unfortunately he only refers to it as a ceremonial knife .

rahman · 25th February 2005, 04:35 AM

Herer are my 2 bits worth as an absolute beginner:

1. If the top edge was straight, it may be a pedang or piso pedang from Lombok as discussed by BluErf in an earlier thread. I don't see a ganja so it can't be a keris.

2. The sheath looks like a sandang walikat, but the shape is rather odd. Was it original to the blade or comissioned in the USA?

3. The hilt and selut/mendak looks Balinese/Lombok

Of course, I'll be happy to be proven wrong

That's how we learn

Mick · 25th February 2005, 07:51 AM

Rick

Those Balinese Ceremonial knives nowadays usually look like what Zonneveld calls Wedungs from Bali on page 153. I have one of these which I have previously shown at this link.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000732.html
(Don't know why this didn't come out in color.)

These knives are used in the opening of the coffin in cremation ceremonies.

The piece that Zonneveld shows on page 74 is a much higher grade piece which was acquired in 1895 and is probably not now the norm except in the finest circles.

The only similarity I see with the one on the back cover is the general outline of the cut on the top of the sheath. I know that the actual cut for the blade is muxh wider than that for the piece that I have shown here.

rahman

The blade is definately a pedang. The pamor is a puzzling. The entire piece is puzzling.

tom hyle · 25th February 2005, 02:13 PM

Of course the craftsman should have done what he agreed to do. On the other hand the sword is happier this way.
Why would a person leap to the assumption that the sheath, if newer, was made in N America, rather than Indonesia, which would be more common?

Mick · 25th February 2005, 04:24 PM

Tom

I assume that you are being factious. What happened is often the norm rather than a special event even when you are right on top of the situation. (Inonesian nationals please don't take offense with this statement. If you have had experience with this activity you should be smiling in rememberance.) Actually my experiance with local craftsmen has been very good with this case the only mishap in all the work that I had done by the group I knew yers ago in Bali.

The flavor of the dress was distinctly Balinese which is why I had the additions made and installed there. The blade itself I should have said is a sword of some type rather than a pedang which sort of leads one to a specific type of sword with both a sharp edge and a point. This thing is more of a swinging cutting device and has the rectangular tang required for this activity.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th February 2005, 05:17 PM

Can anyone tell me which flowers are used for decoration on the hilt? The one on the top looks like Chrysanthemum. Is it, and what about the others.

Regards

Jens

24th February 2005, 09:29 PM	#1
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Need information on this item Gentlemen Here is a piece that I picked up almost forty years ago which I have not been able to identify. I am not even sure that the item is an ensemble and is not made up of separate pieces. The blade was eroded on the lower edge from about the 11 inch mark on the ruler and I told the man who was doing the patination not to touch it as I wanted the original shape of the blade to be seen. Of course, he didn’t do what I wanted and shaped that blade so that it could be sharpened which he proceeded to do. If you project the curve of the lower edge from its origin to the eleven inch mark forward you will get a good idea of the original shape. The original ferrule (or salute if you will) was a crappy made up piece similar to the one that exists now which is in gold (which I commissioned). The detail work on the ivory cutting is well done, but not matching between the top of the sheath and the grip. Both designs are different which is one of the reasons that it may be a made up item. I am also not sure that this blade was meant to go into this sheath although there are no signs of recutting the mouth of the sheath to accept the blade which fits well. The sheath also showed that it was prepared for a Balinese backing plate which I also commissioned and had installed. The pattern is pamor applied over a kern of steel which shows along the top edge and might be reminiscent of old east java work. All and all it shows that a lot of money and effort went into the ensemble both before I got it and after, but I still don’t have any idea of its origin. Attached Images

24th February 2005, 11:11 PM	#2
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Wow thats lovely... beautiful pattern

24th February 2005, 11:34 PM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	That is simply beautiful beyond words. Yours is the only collection that I know of where one has to stop and remind yourself that these are weapons, so easy is it to get lost in all of the intricate artistry, and while the work in horn, ivory and wood is awesome, the results drawn out of the metal are unbelievable. It's the most unique method of theft controll I've ever seen as well.........if a burglar were to break in, by the time the police arrived and shouted to get his hands in the air, his reply would be,"Shhhhh! Hey, look at that one over there!!! What is that one?" Mike

25th February 2005, 02:27 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Mick , Van Zonneveld's book has an example that is in the same general vein as yours . It is shown on the back dustjacket in a demon form (Rangda) keris stand ; the same picture is also in the book on pg. 112 . Van Zonneveld seems to attribute both to Bali ; unfortunately he only refers to it as a ceremonial knife .

25th February 2005, 04:35 AM	#5
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Herer are my 2 bits worth as an absolute beginner: 1. If the top edge was straight, it may be a pedang or piso pedang from Lombok as discussed by BluErf in an earlier thread. I don't see a ganja so it can't be a keris. 2. The sheath looks like a sandang walikat, but the shape is rather odd. Was it original to the blade or comissioned in the USA? 3. The hilt and selut/mendak looks Balinese/Lombok Of course, I'll be happy to be proven wrong That's how we learn

25th February 2005, 07:51 AM	#6
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Rick Those Balinese Ceremonial knives nowadays usually look like what Zonneveld calls Wedungs from Bali on page 153. I have one of these which I have previously shown at this link. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000732.html (Don't know why this didn't come out in color.) These knives are used in the opening of the coffin in cremation ceremonies. The piece that Zonneveld shows on page 74 is a much higher grade piece which was acquired in 1895 and is probably not now the norm except in the finest circles. The only similarity I see with the one on the back cover is the general outline of the cut on the top of the sheath. I know that the actual cut for the blade is muxh wider than that for the piece that I have shown here. rahman The blade is definately a pedang. The pamor is a puzzling. The entire piece is puzzling.

25th February 2005, 02:13 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Of course the craftsman should have done what he agreed to do. On the other hand the sword is happier this way. Why would a person leap to the assumption that the sheath, if newer, was made in N America, rather than Indonesia, which would be more common?

25th February 2005, 04:24 PM	#8
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Tom I assume that you are being factious. What happened is often the norm rather than a special event even when you are right on top of the situation. (Inonesian nationals please don't take offense with this statement. If you have had experience with this activity you should be smiling in rememberance.) Actually my experiance with local craftsmen has been very good with this case the only mishap in all the work that I had done by the group I knew yers ago in Bali. The flavor of the dress was distinctly Balinese which is why I had the additions made and installed there. The blade itself I should have said is a sword of some type rather than a pedang which sort of leads one to a specific type of sword with both a sharp edge and a point. This thing is more of a swinging cutting device and has the rectangular tang required for this activity.

25th February 2005, 05:17 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Can anyone tell me which flowers are used for decoration on the hilt? The one on the top looks like Chrysanthemum. Is it, and what about the others. Regards Jens