Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by micas

Check out Alatriste with Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn from LOTR). Spanish sword and dagger stuff in there. Interesting pike fighting at the end. "Looks" realistic.

The book by Arturo Perez Reverte was good, and I heard the movie was all right.

[ariel]

I have only one word for you:
"300"

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

I have only one word for you:
"300"

When i think of 300 i can only remember corny, wooden dialog, tedious narration, obnoxious characters that are more stupid than heroric, bad CGI effects that looked just plain "fake" instead of the graphic novel "stylization" they were hoping for, extremely bad history that maligns an entire culture of people and portrays them as monsters and enslavers, really bad pacing that breaks the action up with long boring segments that make a pretense at trying to be an actual story and lots of dumb talk about the glory of dying a "good" death in the heat of sensless battle. The fight sequences (the only real reason to watch this flick) became kinda tedious after the first couple with it's repetetive start/stop/start action. I couldn't find a single character in the entire movie that i could care enough for to worry about their impending death (in fact i couldn't wait until they were all dead). I could go on and delve into the not so subliminal political propaganda and comparisions to our (the west) battle with the "Persian" empire today, but i will leave it at that.
My only hope, since i have no real knowledge of the weapons of the time, would be that they might have got the arms and armor right, but somehow i have my doubts.

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by David

My only hope, since i have no real knowledge of the weapons of the time, would be that they might have got the arms and armor right, but somehow i have my doubts.

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

[David]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

But how else would we get to see their fabulous (and CGI identical) six-pack abs?

[ariel]

Perhaps, an opinion from the American pre-eminent military historian, Victor Davis Hanson, could be of help.
http://washingtontimes.com/commentar...5421-8261r.htm

[David]

From the above mentioned article:
True, 2,500 years ago, almost every society in the ancient Mediterranean world had slaves. And all relegated women to a relatively inferior position. Sparta turned the entire region of Messenia into a dependent serf state.
But in the Greek polis alone, there were elected governments, ranging from the constitutional oligarchy at Sparta to much broader-based voting in states like Athens and Thespiae.
Most importantly, only in Greece was there a constant tradition of unfettered expression and self-criticism. Aristophanes, Sophocles and Plato questioned the subordinate position of women. Alcidamas lamented the notion of slavery.


And yet is is my understanding that at that time Persia had already banned slavery and gave far more rights to their women than the Greeks or any other Western culture did at the time, much to the distain of the Greeks.
Pederasty was also the norm in ancient Greece. I didn't see any of that depicted in the film though.
Hey, it's a comic book. I wouldn't argue with anyone about many of the more detail oriented inaccuracies in the film. Exact numbers are unimportant here. 300, 600, 1500, who cares. And yes, the story line was basically taken from the writings of the greeks themselves. Of course the Greeks would depict their attackers as being lesser beings then themselves. This is the way of all war, to depict ones enemy as less than human. But i also see using that skewed Greek viewpoint as dangerous propaganda for our modern times.
But politics and accuracy aside, this film still sucked!
BTW, i didn't find the line, "Then we shall fight in the shade." in reference to the Persian arrows blotting out the sun to be among the corny ones as the author suggests. Rather it was probably the best line in the whole film.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by David

But how else would we get to see their fabulous (and CGI identical) six-pack abs?

Hey, how do you suppose they got all those actors packed with those abs? Or was it just CGI? Most even had 8-packs, let alone the few unlucky with 6

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

Oddly enough, given all its numerous other flaws, in this area it's relatively accurate, although a loincloth and mantle counts as overdressed. Friezes, mosaics and pottery from the time depict Greek warriors going into battle with helmet, shield and spear, sometimes with a sword -- and not a stitch of clothing, let alone armor. Oh, I suppose the generals and nobles might've had a bit more, but the average warrior? Not a bit.

The classical Olympic games were held as a celebration of the art of war, and the athletes competed in the games as they would on the battle field -- in the nude. That's one of the reasons why women were banned from attending.

[katana]

The 300 spartans were Hoplites, heavily armed infantry.
"Hoplites wore tunics under other armor that included breastplates, helmets, and greaves. They carried spears and swords to use in their close style of fighting. Spartan hoplites also wore a short red cloak and long hair."


http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/g.../g/Hoplite.htm

Without the shields or armour the greeks would never have survived the initial onslought of arrows. Not widely known is the fact that the 300 spartans were aided by 1000 Thespians (no not actors ) and Thebans who elected to stay and fight...although the Thebans surrendered just before the final slaughter.
The Greek armour/shield and military skill with the spear easily kept the 'Immortals' back as they were lightly armoured and had 'wicker' shields.

The spartans were true warriors....their 7-8 year old sons would be taken away from their families and trained in millitary schools, severe injury and death during training was not uncommon. One test on the young boys was to be publicly flogged until they uttered a sound.....the last boy to cry out was the winner Even the women were taught how to fight ....with or without weapons One of the tasks to prove their manhood was to sneak out of the military school ...unseen ...and strangle (to death) a male slave (being a military state much manual labour was done by captured soldiers whom were enslaved) and return...undetected. If caught they were severely punished.

[David]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

...Friezes, mosaics and pottery from the time depict Greek warriors going into battle with helmet, shield and spear, sometimes with a sword -- and not a stitch of clothing, let alone armor. Oh, I suppose the generals and nobles might've had a bit more, but the average warrior? Not a bit.
The classical Olympic games were held as a celebration of the art of war, and the athletes competed in the games as they would on the battle field -- in the nude. That's one of the reasons why women were banned from attending.

Romanticized depictions in Greek art should not be confused with the realities of common sense combat. As stated in Ariel's source:

The warriors of "300" look like comic-book heroes because they are based on Frank Miller's drawings that emphasized bare torsos, futuristic swords and staged fight scenes. In other words, director Zack Snyder tells the story not in a realistic fashion -- like the mostly failed attempts to recapture the ancient world in recent films such as "Troy" or "Alexander" -- but in the surreal manner of a comic book or video game.
The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used "heroic nudity" to show the contours of the human body.

In other words, this nudity wasn't a true representation of Greek warriors in battle, but artistic license meant to show the beauty of "heroic nudity".
Likewise, nudity in sports was an extention of that artistic sense into the actual world. And then, the ancient Greeks also found the male body attractive for completely different reasons outside of it's prowess on the battle or sports field.

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by David

Romanticized depictions in Greek art should not be confused with the realities of common sense combat.

The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used "heroic nudity" to show the contours of the human body. [/B]

In other words, this nudity wasn't a true representation of Greek warriors in battle, but artistic license meant to show the beauty of "heroic nudity".

yup

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Manolo

The book by Arturo Perez Reverte was good, and I heard the movie was all right.

It kind of depends on who you ask...

The sword and dagger duels were fairly OK, though, given the circumstances.
The final battle... well, let's not go into that.

[ariel]

The only superb Perez Reverte's book was " The Club Dumas" and it was mangled cinematographically into something beyond awful.
"Flanders Panel" was good. " The Fencing Master" was very good.
But the Alatriste series.... very disappointing. Did not see the movies; are they "straight on DVD" releases?

[Emanuel]

Just saw a trailer for this Hindi epic http://www.jodhaaakbar.com/ a big period production about Akbar. Seems to have loads of tulwar action, fights between Rajputs and Mughals, along with the ubiquitous love story.
I'm looking forward to it.

[ariel]

I guess this is the first movie of the "marital bliss" for the leading couple.
Must be visually impressive; I just hope neither of them starts belting a song and a dance in the middle of a fighting sequence.
I guess that is what Indian audience demands, but if Bollywood wants to go international, they will have to get rid of this annoyance. Can you imagine Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton taking a break from slaughtering the Nazis in the middle of "Where Eagles Landed" and doing a love duet?

[Emanuel]

Check out the trailer on the website. I heard choruses in the background but those were probably just the trailer's score. I got the impression that the movie was pretty serious.

[ariel]

Hope you are right: I'll be the first one to Netflick it!
Say whatever you want, but, quoting Roger Ebers, Aishwariya Rai is not only the most beautiful woman in the world, but the second most beautiful as well.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by ariel

Can you imagine Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton taking a break from slaughtering the Nazis in the middle of "Where Eagles Landed" and doing a love duet?

I thought they were just good friends!!!

Jeff

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by ariel

I guess this is the first movie of the "marital bliss" for the leading couple. Must be visually impressive; I just hope neither of them starts belting a song and a dance in the middle of a fighting sequence.

I...er...saw the movie....yup they do the love duet. At least it's not in the fight sequences, which are quite weak. The fighting is poorly choreographed, lots of edge on edge sparing and western fencing, nothing remotely similar to gatka. The tulwars SUCK, they've got huge handles fit for the Governator, no other kinds of weapons - with the exception of one very quick shot of a jamadhar.
Basically it's one big love story, with lots of time spent in character development. Big dance and song sequences, although to be fair they're integrated in court festivities, not just popping out of the blue, and the tunes are energetic and catchy.
Pretty movie with a nice picture of Mughal and Rajput culture and art, and yes, a very beautiful Rai. Bad movie for weapons and battles.

[HangPC2]

The Queen Of Langkasuka (2008)

[David]

Here's a trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ujKr-Y0Wz8
Says at the end that there will be a "worldwide release" so i hope that there will be an English subtitled version. Looks interesting and fun.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by HangPC2

The Queen Of Langkasuka (2008)

Looks Malay.

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by HangPC2

The Queen Of Langkasuka (2008)

One thing that came to mind immediately when I saw the trailer for this was how there were a lot of malay/indonesian Keris daggers in the beginning of the trailer, and at the end we see stuntman-turned-leading actor Dan Chupong wielding a Moro or Bruneian-type kris sword.

was that just me or was he just holding a big keris as opposed to a kris?

Here is a pic featuring Dan Chupong in the centre, holding the weapon in question with his outstretched arm:

[migueldiaz]

has braveheart been mentioned already?

earlier, bill posted an article on wallace's 6-pound and 5-foot sword leaving scotland for the first time.

[migueldiaz]

I'd also highly recommend "Hero", an epic Chinese story.

The cinematography is superb, the sword fights are excellent, and the story that is full of twists and turns is very engaging.

[David]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

I'd also highly recommend "Hero", an epic Chinese story.

The cinematography is superb, the sword fights are excellent, and the story that is full of twists and turns is very engaging.

Miguel. this was has been mentioned before as well, but thanks for posting all the photos.
I absolute LOVE this film, own it and have watched it many times.
Also mentioned before (but if you like Hero), by the same director Zhang Yimou, see House of Flying Daggers. I like this one even better.

[kronckew]

having been reading the kampilan thread ala bill marsh with interest, i happened to see Hollywood's 'thief of Baghdad' with Sabu, over the weekend.

there is a point where he opens a bottle, gets the traditional genie & three wishes, he then gets flown to the top of the tallest peak in the top of the world to steal the 'all-seeing eye' from a temple idol.

after arrival, he liberates a sword from a long dead skeleton, all covered in cob-webs ('conan' plagiarism?) as he cleaned off the web, it becomes obvious it's a kampilan, complete with traditional hilt wound in rattan, sinuous metal staple on one side, crocodile beak blade, etc. he then climbs the idol, and a giant spiders web with the kampilan between his teeth, kills the giant spider & unfortunately drops the sword never to be seen again....

there of course were the more common shamshir and daggers throughout.

not bad for a sixty-odd year old movie.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... having been reading the kampilan thread ala bill marsh with interest, i happened to see Hollywood's 'thief of Baghdad' with Sabu, over the weekend ... after arrival, he liberates a sword from a long dead skeleton, all covered in cob-webs ('conan' plagiarism?) as he cleaned off the web, it becomes obvious it's a kampilan, complete with traditional hilt wound in rattan, sinuous metal staple on one side, crocodile beak blade, etc.

Thanks Kronckew.

Being a Filipino that is struck with kampilan-philia, I need to see that movie!

Also, the kampilan's appearance in that movie was mentioned earlier --

ruel
Senior Member posted 06-25-2004 04:48

Thief of Bagdad (1949): Kampilan, tachi, firangi, yataghan. Don't believe me? Go ahead, watch it...

---

tom hyle
Senior Member posted 06-25-2004 09:10

... Theif of Baghdad seems to feature some "real" weapons ... "Theif" contains one of the instances of holding a kampilan backward, which seems like it'd be obvious with a real sword ...

Thanks again Kronckew

[kronckew]

i shall assume they got the date wrong then and they referred to the sabu version, as the sabu version was apparently 1940. , ruel's 1949 date of their post (and tom's spelling of thief) threw me off - there have been a number of versions

while sabu carried the kampilan upside down for a while (edge up), when he was actually using it, cutting at the spider, and later when he cut it's suspension thread, he held it correctly, striking with the edge, not the back of the blade, i looked carefully he also carried it in his mouth edge out as he apparently didn't want to cut himself



the kampilan in the movie was similar to the above, which is edge down, and the angled fork of the grip up when held, tho some kampilans in modern repos have the angled fork also down, as below.



(images from google image search)