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#1 |
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Location: USA Georgia
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Overall length 22"
Blade Length 17.5" Horn handle with ivory or tricadna shell cap. Looks more like tricadna I am very curious about this piece and would welcome comments. |
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#2 |
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Absolutely stunning. Simply elegant. Can't offer any other insights. Bill, you've got the best toys!
![]() Steve Edit, Oh one thing. The baca baca looks like a replacement made from sheet brass. |
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#3 |
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I dare say that looks like a pamored piece ya got there Bill. It would be interesting to see what some warangan would do for it.
![]() It also has rather well formed "sogakan" and a very Indonesian "sekar kacang". Given all these factors i am inclined to suggest that this is not a Moro kris, but an Indo one, or at least made by an Indo smith who may have relocated. We might have to move this one to the keris forum. ![]() |
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#4 |
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Oh, did i say, that's sweet!?
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#5 |
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I am quite curious about it. Indo / Moro?
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#6 |
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BEAUTIFUL KRIS!!
![]() ![]() ![]() CONGRATULATIONS FOR THIS PIECE CARLOS |
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#7 |
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Location: Chicago area
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Very interesting kris, I don't recall seeing a straight blade "18thC" before. The blade tip seems to be in-between a stabbing & slashing sword. From what I can recall all the "18thC", I have seen, have a more defined point. Nice example of crossover from keris to kris. As far as "Indo smith who may have relocated", I think this kris preceeds the Philippine kris & a "relocated" smith wouldn't just start making a "kris" just because he is on, what is now, Philippine soil. Simular pattern to a wavy kris RSword & myself have posted before.
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#8 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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I think this center kris of mine is late 18th or early 19th century it exhibits a narrow blade and a cruder ganja but it seems more Moro than Bill's.
Lew |
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#9 |
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Hello Bill,
I'm pretty sure this is an ethnic Malay example - Riau, Straits or even eastern Sumatra. I wouldn't rule out Borneo/Brunei but most examples collected from Borneo seem to have originated from Sulu (or being crafted in the same style) with some trade blades from Mindanao thrown in the mix. Also, I don't recall any pamor blade from Borneo nor Moro provenance, especially not this pamor (even welded in low contrast). The gangya configuration is keris-like and doesn't fit into Cato's categories. So, all bets are off on this piece... However, the carving of the blade is really nicely done and I'd guess it has some real age. I'm less convinced of the fittings, especially the clamp might be a quite recent replacement. BTW, it's easy to tell ivory from giant clam shell with the help of a reasonable magnifying glass - the latter is quite porous and shows different growth rings. Regards, Kai |
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#10 | ||
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BTW, could you please post a close-up of your piece, Lew? I agree that this also seems to be Moro. Quote:
Regards, Kai |
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#11 |
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Yeah Bill (Marsh), this blade seems to exhibit far too many Indo/Malay keris features to be a Moro kris. There is even a very well developed (and extented) tikel alis. The gonjo, as Kai already stated, is much more an Indo than a Moro form. And without a good staining i wouldn't even be so sure that the pamor is a low contrast material (i really think you should stain it Bill
![]() Bill (the other one), i am with Kai and i don't believe this keris necessarily pre-dates the Moro kris. No, a relocated Indo/Malay smith wouldn't "just start making a "kris" because he is on Philippine soil". He would be asked to make one because that is his skill. If indeed this blade was made in Moroland and is old enough, it could be that it still exhibits Malay/Indo traits because it is transitional from Indo to Moro need. Still, if i were a betting man ![]() Kai, you may still be right about Riau or the Straits, but this type of pamor looks more like what i would associate with Celebes or Sumatra. |
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#12 |
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[QUOTE=kai]
I think you have it backwards, kinda: While the kris best known from the Moro evolved from Malay/Indonesian keris, any extant pieces whose construction speaks for an origin in Malaysia or Indonesia seem to be younger than the oldest Moro kris. I'd postulate that these were crafted after (extensive and well established) contact with Moro traders and most likely inspired by Moro trade blades. Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition. |
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#13 | |
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I know we have been around this block before, but i do find it difficult to accept these "archaic" kris as Bugis since the blade form doesn't really resemble the bugis style of keris very much. I am also confused as to why you can't believe that these keris could possible be a "starter edition". |
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#14 | |||
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Hello David,
Quote:
![]() That's also present on the archaic Moro kris, however, the execution is different... Quote:
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
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#15 |
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While I am not as familiar with the keris construction, this blade has a central core of mechanical twistcore sandwiched with nice lamellar cheeks. I have seen this construction in a few pieces(like the one I use to have that Bill/Chicago now has) and I have also seen a number of Moro pieces with well defined chiseling at the forte as in this example. What I have not seen as much is the sandwich type of construction in keris but as I mentioned I am not as familiar with them. My vote is that it is a Moro blade.
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#16 | ||
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Hello Bill,
Quote:
Quote:
![]() ![]() While it is tempting to single out the Bugis which certainly had a lot of contact with the Tausug (for better or worse ![]() For example, I think it will be hard to completely diss the northern link: Malaya - Brunei - Sulu. We also have to keep in mind that extensive trade contacts had been established for millennia throughout SE Asia. I think there are early sources that at least the Tausug were very active seafarers from early on. So, regardless wether the rulers happened to be in good terms or were enemies, it seems safe to assume that the Moro had close contact with about any other major player in the region and beyond. Regards, Kai |
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#17 | ||
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Hello Rick,
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Regards, Kai |
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#18 | |
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#19 | |
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Hi Rick. I have to agree with Kai. It is not the level of execution in the chiselling, but the style in which the work is done which leads me to believe this is not Moro work. The Moro were certainly capable of fine quality chiselling. Also as Kai points out, this is not the twisted core that we are familar with seeing in some Moro keris. The constuction of this keris looks the same as in pamored Indo/Malay varieties. |
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#20 |
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Thanks for the clarification of what you guys are seeing in the style of work at the forte. I still recall seeing Moro blades of similar construct. I am hoping some of the Moro guys will chime in. It is an interesting piece all around. I still want to point out that this blade has a central core of mechanical damascus, you can see the lines on each side, with the edges welded on. This seems more Moro in nature. Do you often find keris with a central plate with the edges welded on? Bill, I have had a few Bugis keris over the years and I don't remember a pattern exactly like this one. As I recall, they did tend to have a nice pattern down the central portion of the blade, and as I recall somewhat similar to the blade in question, but the big difference was that it was not a central core with edges welded on. It was a single blade, not of tripartite construction. Now, the handle doesn't seem terribly Moro on this piece but the scabbard to my eye looks more Moro than Malay. So, it seems to have characteristics of several cultures so is it a type of missing link? I don't know.
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#21 | |
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#22 |
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David: I think the forms of warfare varied quite a bit from Sulawesi & Moroland. As I already posted, Bill M's kris is unusual in the staight blade & x-over tip. I'm sure their must be keris that have a simular tip, but I can't recall any. The Moro were certainly capabal of fine chissel and file work but the question is when? Keep in mind, Bugis had 3 distinct groups: royalty, warriors, workers & slaves. Above all they were most successfull because of the mixture of farmers/miners & the warriors to protect them from being invaded, pre western period. The smiths for the most part made tools. All men carried a keris & there was likely a lot of average keris makers. I suspect the warrior class had smiths that catered to their needs. The construction method not being of your concern to origin, I agree. While Ricks old sword has a twisted core & is the only one I have; I do have several Philippine kris with a sandwiched core, as well, a sandwiched pamored Bugis keris. As far as the features you describe as Indonesian workmanship, I'm kind of at a loss, as those are the features of the "18thC" with the exception that the sogokan out-line is for a straight blade. As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads; Bill M's sword seems to be moving towards a slashing sword, more of a primary weapon.
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#23 | ||
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Hello Rick,
Quote:
This pamor pattern is common on keris Bugis - of course, the "random" types are more numerous. Quote:
I don't think the blade - much less the fittings - are old enough to be even close to a missing link. Much more likely that the blade travelled a bit through the archipelago before ending up with Bill. BTW, I don't want to sound too critical: I do like this piece! Regards, Kai |
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#24 | |||
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Hello Bill,
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Regards, Kai |
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#25 |
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[QUOTE=kai]Hello Bill,
"Different between them? Please explain!" Bugis used blowguns with poisoned darts until firearms. They practised definitive warfare, always removing the head. As experianced tool makers it seems logical they would develop a blade that would dispatch & behead. I've posted a blade in the past where one of the one curve shows continuous use. The Moro charged their opponents. "I don't see how the latter is supposed to have worked - seems akward if you're used to blades of the klewang family (Kampilan, Mandau, etc.) and Panabas." How did the Bugis finish off a man dazed by a poison dart and remove their head? I've posted in the past a referance by early Portuguese that described the Burgis warrior as carrying a sword just for that task; although there is no description of the sword itself. "I believe that you can stab just fine with it and with a 17.5" blade it doesn't seem to be a primary battlefield/raiding party weapon either." I agree Bill M's sword would not be the primary battlefield/raiding party weapon of the typical warrior. Again we get into the when and where. Clearly the sword is no longer just a stabbing weapon as the keris is. It seems the older the "18thC" the less defined the point. The center example Lew posts is what I believe the "18thC" is morphing into, a slashing sword. I have a feeling that Bill M's sword is older then you think. One needs to concentrate on the blade & disregard the fittings and scabbard. It would be interesting to know what type of tang it has. |
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#26 |
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Good catch Bill!
Cost a pretty penny, though! ![]() |
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#27 | |
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![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() As for these archaic keris having the specific purpose you describe, you lose me there. First off, weren't these "archaic" kris collected from a Moro provenence (regardless of their actual origin)? Did the Moro use blowguns and then dispatch their enemies and take their heads? Or are you saying that these "archaic" kris were actually used by the Bugis for their style of warfare, but somehow all ended up in the Philippines where they were collected? ![]() Anyway, i do not see these early kris as being designed to be very effective for removing heads. Take a good look at the Dayak mandau for a blade that is well designed for that purpose. ![]() |
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#28 | ||||||
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Hello Bill,
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If coming out of Indonesia during the last 60 years, this pamor blade would be very well preserved if it's a 19th century piece (which I'd guess - maybe 1850 +/- 100 years). Quote:
![]() ![]() Regards, Kai |
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#29 |
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Hi Kai and others. I have been really enjoying this thread.
I have a few observations. I don't see this being a beheading sword, the blade is light but very well-balanced. I would think it would be a bit of work to quickly cut off a head. I would also like to see the tang and have a better clamp, but I am concerned about the handle. It already has a crack, and I am concerned the trauma of removing it would break it, though I could be wrong. It is also on very tight, so my usual method of heating the blade would probably crack the handle. I know the handle is wrong, but do not know what would be better? So replacing this handle might be a problem. If we could arrive at a consensus of what an appropriate handle should look like, maybe I could get a right one made(?) Could we get some better answers if I clean and stain? I have one other picture that may provide another clue. The metal that usually goes up into the hilt seems to come out just above the ferrule. |
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#30 | ||||
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Hello Bill,
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Regards, Kai |
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