An Ottoman Shamshir for Comment

tom hyle · 24th February 2005, 02:01 AM

Hmmmm....I got my comments mixed in with the quote....I'd fix it, but my computer's acting up a little and also my cat is going to eat me if'n I don't play with her.

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2005, 04:23 AM

Outstanding observations on this Ottoman kilic everybody!!
In looking at this beautiful parabolic shamshir type blade, with pronounced yelman which as Philip has noted more categorizes this in the 'kilic' group, I am with Mike in thinking of North Africa.
As has also been noted by Philip, the triple X marking derives from European trade blades, particularly German. It seems that this symbolism had certain parallels in early occult/cabalistic devices and that three crosses were in apothecary connotation cautionary for deadly substances. Whether or not this application is relevant, it seems interesting to note. As often occurs on trade or native blades, multiplication of symbols presumably were thought to increase potency.

Also, this kilic blade seems much more a horsemans blade than the much shorter and clearly heavier and less parabolic blade of the Turkish kilic most commonly seen. This brings to mind the Mamluk sabres of the end of the 18th c. which of course were from Egypt. It is interesting that the etching on the blade resembles 'thuluth' which was commonly applied to edged weapons in Sudanese regions in the last quarter of the 19th century. Since these regions closest to Egypt were under Ottoman suzerainty at that time, it would seem plausible that a Mamluk type blade could have been remounted or joined with this hilt. The 'thuluth' motif might have then been applied, including the 'dukari' or opposed crescent moons marking that although commonly associated with the Saharan 'takouba', is also known to occur of Sudanese kaskaras with the thuluth application.
The fact that this marking is applied close to the cutting edge, as well as the application of 'thuluth' motif would suggest that this was done as addition to an existing blade and around the fullering. The central location of the 'moons' also concurs with location on thuluth covered kaskaras attributed in Briggs article to the Hausa's.

These suppositions are presuming that this etched decorative motif is in fact 'thuluth' as described, and not other similar motif. Since it is noted this has no inclinations toward Persian revival type pieces, it would seem unlikely that the calligraphy would be 'naskh' , a Persian form of this motif .

Best regards,
Jim

Philip · 24th February 2005, 09:03 AM

Some years ago, I had a discussion with swordmaker Vincent Evans about these tangs which were cleft and forge welded to the blade. I showed him a couple of shamshir blades with this treatment, and also a Chinese saber blade that was similarly joined, albeit a fraction of an inch behind the blade shoulders. Vince, having forged many a blade in his time, could not see any logical reason why a smith would do a joint like that as part of original manufacture. If anything, it's more time consuming than it would be to hammer the tang out as an integral extension of the blade billet. Also, this type of joint creates a potential stress point since the contact area is relatively small.

I had thought about the desire to economize on materials as a rationale, to avoid "wasting" wootz or pattern weld on a part of the blade that would be hidden from view. Over time, I acquired and obtained for study several Ottoman kilij of the late 18th and early 19th cent, and did a polish and etch on the blades to bring out their structure. Two were wootz. Lo and behold, there was a lap weld at the forte, about 3 inches ahead of the shoulders, where the wootz was joined to a plain carbon steel "root" which also formed the tang. When the blade was new and pristine, the ornate gold koftgari decoration (a good deal of which still remained on these pieces) covered up the joint. Vince said that the contact area of this type of lap joint was larger than on the cleft-and-welded tangs, and thus the joint would be stronger.

On two multi-row twistcore pattern weld kilij blades, the tang and the steel at the very base of the forte was a simple linear laminate joined to the pattern weld via a diagonal scarf joint, likewise very strong. On these, the joint was skilfully laid out so that the linear blended with the twisted cores in an aesthetically attractive and structurally sound manner, and there seemed to be no attempt to hide it with koftgari onlay. The deliberateness of the assembly led Vince and me to conclude that these joints were purpose-made at time of manufacture and not a later repair.

Philip · 24th February 2005, 09:23 AM

Jim,
Your comments on the blade and its decor are most interesting, thank you for your contribution.

I looked through my references on Islamic calligraphy, and have determined that the style of penmanship on the etched inscription of this kilij is not thuluth, as you describe, but rather appears to be a variant of the common naskhi hand. Naskhi, described by Anthony Welch in CALLIGRAPHY IN THE ARTS OF THE MUSLIM WORLD (Austin: Univ. of Texas Press, 1979) as "a legible and stately script that long remained in favor for its straightforwardness, adherance to the horizontal, and simple virtuosities" (p 31), examples illus. on pp 93, 121,123.

Thuluth is more ponderous and monumental, and the vertical strokes are accentuated (Welch, ibid., examples illus. on pp 95, 101) and are often compressed, which de-emphasizes the horizontal element.

The Persians favored ta'liq, which has a very strong upper right to lower left diagonal orientation of the strokes (Welch, example illus. p 163), and a combination called nasta'liq which has elements of naskhi but still with the diagonal emphasis (Welch, example p 67).

Comparative examples of these and many other penmanship styles can be found in Celal Esad Arseven, LES ARTS DECORATIFS TURCS (Istanbul: Milli Egitim Basinevi, no date).

tom hyle · 25th February 2005, 01:07 AM

Philip, without seeing the blades in question I can only understand what you're saying without much comment on it. It is not my experience that pinch-welded tangs and blade bases are done on a shorter lap than simple scarfs, nor are otherwise weaker or more poorly done.
BTW, the reason to do this is not only to economize on materials, though that is often spoken of. The reason to do it is that an unhardenable (usually wrought iron) blade base/tang is stronger than carbon steel, especially old suphurous carbon steel, for absorbing the shock. The idea that it is inferior in some way and done to gain economic advantage or use scrap or something is largely an industrial misconception.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2005, 01:32 AM

Philip,
Thank you very much for the note on my observations, and for addressing the comments on the etching. Quite frankly I was uncertain of which of these decorative forms were most applicable as I am not entirely familar with the Persian form you describe, although I have handled the thuluth covered weapons. With your very thorough description the differences are quite clear, and I agree the thuluth is as you well describe, much more monumental. I think that the crescent moons as often found stamped in takoubas and as noted, some kaskaras, led me to consider the often found thuluth as a possibility.

I am always incredibly impressed with your phenomenal descriptions of the dynamics of metallurgy and all aspects of edged weapons mounting and construction as well as your keen skills at furbishing. These descriptions truly give new dimension to understanding these weapons.

With the revision of the form of calligraphic motif to Persian, I am still wondering whether Egyptian or Mamluk attribution of this sabre, or kilic, may remain plausible. I would be interested in your opinion.

All best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 25th February 2005, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The reason to do it is that an unhardenable (usually wrought iron) blade base/tang is stronger than carbon steel, especially old suphurous carbon steel, for absorbing the shock.

That's interesting, Tom. Is there a significant improvement?

tom hyle · 25th February 2005, 12:50 PM

Well, it's certainly stronger; how much I can't meaningfully quantify. Carbon steel, especially suphurous carbon steel, especially but not only when hardened is much more liable to cracking and to cracks spreading than wrought iron. In practical reality I've never broken a sword at this point, but then I've never broken a "real" sword of forged steel. Often the idea is that the blade is thick enough at the base that bending is not much an issue, and the edge at the base is not an issue on many sword types (often enough it is unsharpened, and though it's sharpened all the way down on Japanese swords, for instance, I've seen an inlaid edge on one start several inches out into the blade.). Thus, the soft blade base offers little if any disadvantage (the main danger being a bad weld) and is stronger. Whether this strength is "overkill" in practical reality, I can't say, but it seems to have been the intention, and my feeling is when someone is swinging a sword at me, every little bit helps. Also, the thick soft part of the blade is supposed to make the hard part stronger, by absorbing shock and vibration that would otherwise damage/endanger it.

24th February 2005, 09:03 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	more observations on blade tangs Some years ago, I had a discussion with swordmaker Vincent Evans about these tangs which were cleft and forge welded to the blade. I showed him a couple of shamshir blades with this treatment, and also a Chinese saber blade that was similarly joined, albeit a fraction of an inch behind the blade shoulders. Vince, having forged many a blade in his time, could not see any logical reason why a smith would do a joint like that as part of original manufacture. If anything, it's more time consuming than it would be to hammer the tang out as an integral extension of the blade billet. Also, this type of joint creates a potential stress point since the contact area is relatively small. I had thought about the desire to economize on materials as a rationale, to avoid "wasting" wootz or pattern weld on a part of the blade that would be hidden from view. Over time, I acquired and obtained for study several Ottoman kilij of the late 18th and early 19th cent, and did a polish and etch on the blades to bring out their structure. Two were wootz. Lo and behold, there was a lap weld at the forte, about 3 inches ahead of the shoulders, where the wootz was joined to a plain carbon steel "root" which also formed the tang. When the blade was new and pristine, the ornate gold koftgari decoration (a good deal of which still remained on these pieces) covered up the joint. Vince said that the contact area of this type of lap joint was larger than on the cleft-and-welded tangs, and thus the joint would be stronger. On two multi-row twistcore pattern weld kilij blades, the tang and the steel at the very base of the forte was a simple linear laminate joined to the pattern weld via a diagonal scarf joint, likewise very strong. On these, the joint was skilfully laid out so that the linear blended with the twisted cores in an aesthetically attractive and structurally sound manner, and there seemed to be no attempt to hide it with koftgari onlay. The deliberateness of the assembly led Vince and me to conclude that these joints were purpose-made at time of manufacture and not a later repair.

24th February 2005, 09:23 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	styles of Arabic and Farsi calligraphy Jim, Your comments on the blade and its decor are most interesting, thank you for your contribution. I looked through my references on Islamic calligraphy, and have determined that the style of penmanship on the etched inscription of this kilij is not thuluth, as you describe, but rather appears to be a variant of the common naskhi hand. Naskhi, described by Anthony Welch in CALLIGRAPHY IN THE ARTS OF THE MUSLIM WORLD (Austin: Univ. of Texas Press, 1979) as "a legible and stately script that long remained in favor for its straightforwardness, adherance to the horizontal, and simple virtuosities" (p 31), examples illus. on pp 93, 121,123. Thuluth is more ponderous and monumental, and the vertical strokes are accentuated (Welch, ibid., examples illus. on pp 95, 101) and are often compressed, which de-emphasizes the horizontal element. The Persians favored ta'liq, which has a very strong upper right to lower left diagonal orientation of the strokes (Welch, example illus. p 163), and a combination called nasta'liq which has elements of naskhi but still with the diagonal emphasis (Welch, example p 67). Comparative examples of these and many other penmanship styles can be found in Celal Esad Arseven, LES ARTS DECORATIFS TURCS (Istanbul: Milli Egitim Basinevi, no date).

24th February 2005, 02:01 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hmmmm....I got my comments mixed in with the quote....I'd fix it, but my computer's acting up a little and also my cat is going to eat me if'n I don't play with her.

24th February 2005, 04:23 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Outstanding observations on this Ottoman kilic everybody!! In looking at this beautiful parabolic shamshir type blade, with pronounced yelman which as Philip has noted more categorizes this in the 'kilic' group, I am with Mike in thinking of North Africa. As has also been noted by Philip, the triple X marking derives from European trade blades, particularly German. It seems that this symbolism had certain parallels in early occult/cabalistic devices and that three crosses were in apothecary connotation cautionary for deadly substances. Whether or not this application is relevant, it seems interesting to note. As often occurs on trade or native blades, multiplication of symbols presumably were thought to increase potency. Also, this kilic blade seems much more a horsemans blade than the much shorter and clearly heavier and less parabolic blade of the Turkish kilic most commonly seen. This brings to mind the Mamluk sabres of the end of the 18th c. which of course were from Egypt. It is interesting that the etching on the blade resembles 'thuluth' which was commonly applied to edged weapons in Sudanese regions in the last quarter of the 19th century. Since these regions closest to Egypt were under Ottoman suzerainty at that time, it would seem plausible that a Mamluk type blade could have been remounted or joined with this hilt. The 'thuluth' motif might have then been applied, including the 'dukari' or opposed crescent moons marking that although commonly associated with the Saharan 'takouba', is also known to occur of Sudanese kaskaras with the thuluth application. The fact that this marking is applied close to the cutting edge, as well as the application of 'thuluth' motif would suggest that this was done as addition to an existing blade and around the fullering. The central location of the 'moons' also concurs with location on thuluth covered kaskaras attributed in Briggs article to the Hausa's. These suppositions are presuming that this etched decorative motif is in fact 'thuluth' as described, and not other similar motif. Since it is noted this has no inclinations toward Persian revival type pieces, it would seem unlikely that the calligraphy would be 'naskh' , a Persian form of this motif . Best regards, Jim

25th February 2005, 01:07 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Philip, without seeing the blades in question I can only understand what you're saying without much comment on it. It is not my experience that pinch-welded tangs and blade bases are done on a shorter lap than simple scarfs, nor are otherwise weaker or more poorly done. BTW, the reason to do this is not only to economize on materials, though that is often spoken of. The reason to do it is that an unhardenable (usually wrought iron) blade base/tang is stronger than carbon steel, especially old suphurous carbon steel, for absorbing the shock. The idea that it is inferior in some way and done to gain economic advantage or use scrap or something is largely an industrial misconception.

25th February 2005, 01:32 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Philip, Thank you very much for the note on my observations, and for addressing the comments on the etching. Quite frankly I was uncertain of which of these decorative forms were most applicable as I am not entirely familar with the Persian form you describe, although I have handled the thuluth covered weapons. With your very thorough description the differences are quite clear, and I agree the thuluth is as you well describe, much more monumental. I think that the crescent moons as often found stamped in takoubas and as noted, some kaskaras, led me to consider the often found thuluth as a possibility. I am always incredibly impressed with your phenomenal descriptions of the dynamics of metallurgy and all aspects of edged weapons mounting and construction as well as your keen skills at furbishing. These descriptions truly give new dimension to understanding these weapons. With the revision of the form of calligraphic motif to Persian, I am still wondering whether Egyptian or Mamluk attribution of this sabre, or kilic, may remain plausible. I would be interested in your opinion. All best regards, Jim

25th February 2005, 12:50 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Well, it's certainly stronger; how much I can't meaningfully quantify. Carbon steel, especially suphurous carbon steel, especially but not only when hardened is much more liable to cracking and to cracks spreading than wrought iron. In practical reality I've never broken a sword at this point, but then I've never broken a "real" sword of forged steel. Often the idea is that the blade is thick enough at the base that bending is not much an issue, and the edge at the base is not an issue on many sword types (often enough it is unsharpened, and though it's sharpened all the way down on Japanese swords, for instance, I've seen an inlaid edge on one start several inches out into the blade.). Thus, the soft blade base offers little if any disadvantage (the main danger being a bad weld) and is stronger. Whether this strength is "overkill" in practical reality, I can't say, but it seems to have been the intention, and my feeling is when someone is swinging a sword at me, every little bit helps. Also, the thick soft part of the blade is supposed to make the hard part stronger, by absorbing shock and vibration that would otherwise damage/endanger it.