I'm Back

Flavio · 18th March 2007, 01:01 PM

Hi all, I'm back with three "new" pieces that I never show before on the forum: a mandau, a pedang 1 and a straight guradè (or saif as you preferr). Any commet, as usual, is very appreciated. Thank you

P.S. any idea on the mandau hilt? why it's so different from the hilts that usual we can see on this weapons?

Flavio · 18th March 2007, 01:04 PM

.

Flavio · 18th March 2007, 01:10 PM

The pedang. The lamination on the blade is very beautiful! Who knows the meaning of the big H on the guard?

Flavio · 18th March 2007, 01:14 PM

... and the guradè. The decoration is the same on both sides of the blade. Unfortunatly no rhino for the hilt

Spunjer · 18th March 2007, 02:13 PM

the bottom one has the lion of judah. ethiopia, perhaps?

Flavio · 18th March 2007, 02:49 PM

Hello Ron, yes the guradè has the lion of judah on one side and it's a tipical ethiopan sword. Regards

Flavio

kai · 18th March 2007, 08:49 PM

Hello Flavio,

I like the pedang blade!

The mandau looks very touristy IMVHO...

Regards,
Kai

Flavio · 18th March 2007, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Flavio,

I like the pedang blade!

The mandau looks very touristy IMVHO...

Regards,
Kai

Are you serious Kai on the Mandau?

kai · 18th March 2007, 10:14 PM

I think so but don't take my word for it! I hope Ben will chime in...

Flavio · 18th March 2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I think so but don't take my word for it! I hope Ben will chime in...

Hello Kai. The blade is very thick, heavy and well forged with a nice inlaid decoration and for sure all the piece seems to be an old one, but I'm not expert at all and I hope too that Ben, Michael or Arjan will join the thread.

Regards
Flavio

kai · 19th March 2007, 12:27 AM

Hello Flavio,

Quote:

The blade is very thick, heavy and well forged with a nice inlaid decoration

It doesn't look flimsy, for sure.

However, the hilt looks really weird with very rough carving. I also don't think the scabbard or the side knife are very old. But I've been wrong before...

Regards,
Kai

FenrisWolf · 19th March 2007, 12:36 AM

I don't know a lot about these, but aesthetically I'd have to agree on the first one, a very crude feel to it, "good enough for the stupid tourists with more money than taste". The blade may be heavy, but the workmanship on it is awfully crude. If I was an apprentice swordmaker I'd be afraid to show this to my master.....

The other two blades more than make up for it though! Definitely nice examples of their types both of them. IF I had to accept one like the first one in order to get the next two, I think I could live with that!

RhysMichael · 19th March 2007, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

The pedang. The lamination on the blade is very beautiful! Who knows the meaning of the big H on the guard?

A very nice peudeueng peusangan with a hulu meu apet ( pedang type 1). I believe the pattern you talk about is just a vegetative motif. If is seen on many hulu meu apet, I will try to post some more pictures soon of some. The floral motifs seen in Aceh are very common on weapons. Geometric and vegetative motifs are often symetrical. And very often enclosed in lines or borders. While it would be an H in the latin alphabet I am pretty sure they mostly use the arabic alphabet there. I hope someone here can add more on this

Maybe Utami will see this soon he is our man on the ground so to speak on these swords. Or Albert he certainly will have some good input on it.

RhysMichael · 19th March 2007, 01:11 AM

Some images

Some on Artzi's site

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02262/ph-4.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02168/ph-4.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...01161/ph-5.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02189/ph-4.jpg

katana · 19th March 2007, 01:37 AM

Hi Flavio,
Congrats... I really like the Pedang..

..the influence of Hindu weapons seems unmistakable with the example you've posted. The hilt is great (very Khanda-ish) and the blade looks fantastic.

The blade on the Gurade is also very nice.....is it European ?

My knowledge of SEA weapons could be written on a postage stamp.....but the blade on the Mandau seems quite modern, the hilt has very little wear or patina. (yesterday I posted a recent Mandau.....functional, well balanced and basic with a good forged blade...but 40+ years old)

Regards David

RhysMichael · 19th March 2007, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Flavio,
Congrats... I really like the Pedang..

..the influence of Hindu weapons seems unmistakable with the example you've posted. The hilt is great (very Khanda-ish) and the blade looks fantastic.

Regards David

Some sources say Hindu and Buddist influence from India may have reached Aceh as early as the first century AD. Islam is believed to have first entered Aceh between the 8th and 12th century. Ariel Barkan noticed that it is influenced by the Indian Gulabghati hilt,

Mark · 19th March 2007, 03:20 PM

Regarding the mandau, we just had a very excellent talk at the Timonium seminar on the subject, which informed that the carving on the handle had very strong religious significance. The stylized motifs each represented a specific aspect of the Dyak cosmology, and the mandau as a whole was meant to represent the cosmos in a way. Erik said that sometimes months, or even a year, were taken to carve the handle.

In view of that, it seems very odd that the handle on this one is so roughly done and relatively unadorned. The lens shapes though are, I think, one of the traditional motifs - the leech.

Flavio · 19th March 2007, 06:39 PM

Hi all and thank you for your comments. On the Mandau: maybe from pictures it's hard to say but the blade is very nice and not crude at all with a beautiful inlaid work. I don't want to defende at any cost my piece but could be well that was collected early as the seller says: "The sword brought to the Netherlands by a Duth captain of the KPM steam package service who died in 1934. His first journey was in 1887 according to his grandson" Maybe this piece never had taken heads, as Ben would say, but I think that is quite old (early 900 at least), but i'm not an expert.
For the handle: we see also good mandaus with completly undecorated hilts, but maybe this is not the case. Just thoughts for discussion

Flavio · 19th March 2007, 06:43 PM

Thank you very much John, as usual your help is fundamental! Yes the decoration seems an H for latin alphabet, but for arabic alphabet maybe means other or nothing (just decoration). But could be that this kind of decoration was influenced by the Dutch? Just an idea

Flavio · 19th March 2007, 06:46 PM

For the guradè, if I'm not wrong, Roano (ROANOA) told me that the blade is German of the end of '800, but without the GG stamped.

Dajak · 19th March 2007, 08:49 PM

Hi I am sorry but the mandau is an new one the handle is poorly carved and also the side knife and the blade.

And I never read about that carving an Handle take s a year Mark.

The Dajaks are expert in nice carvings

Take a good look at the pics you can see what an handle and scabbard have to look like

I am not an expert but before anyone buy s a weapon get good informed and visit an museum online or look for some good books and information and an real old nice mandau are hard to get . but that count for most other weapons too I think.

Ben

RhysMichael · 19th March 2007, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Thank you very much John, as usual your help is fundamental! Yes the decoration seems an H for latin alphabet, but for arabic alphabet maybe means other or nothing (just decoration). But could be that this kind of decoration was influenced by the Dutch? Just an idea

Actually I am just passing on the knowledge others here on this forum have been kind enough to share with me as I tried to get some information on these swords. I do really like these swords. I will look through the sources I have on the Dutch Aceh war and see if I can find anything on the letter H.

Erik was telling me this weekend about an old book on Aceh that sounds like a great reference. I hope to be able to find a copy of it and if so I will check there also.

Flavio · 19th March 2007, 10:28 PM

Ben, thank you for your suggestion, I will do so for my future purchases, you're perfectly correct saying that before to buy one have to know more

John, thank you very much I will look forward to see if you'll be able to find more

asomotif · 26th March 2007, 03:35 PM

Dear Flavio,

This mandau does not look like a traditional pieces that has been used.

But I have seen this type before and they always appear to have some age.
They are often a bit bigger and heavier than you would expect a mandau to be. and they are made much more rough / crude than a mandau for real use.

The decorations are simpler, as on this one, the sideknifescabbards are often made of leather instead of bark. But they are decorated with old beads and tufts of hair, as on this one.

I have now good info on the age, but I would think it to be an early tourist item.

Best regards,
Willem

18th March 2007, 01:01 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	I'm Back Hi all, I'm back with three "new" pieces that I never show before on the forum: a mandau, a pedang 1 and a straight guradè (or saif as you preferr). Any commet, as usual, is very appreciated. Thank you P.S. any idea on the mandau hilt? why it's so different from the hilts that usual we can see on this weapons? Attached Images Last edited by Flavio; 18th March 2007 at 01:15 PM.

18th March 2007, 01:04 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	. Attached Images

18th March 2007, 01:10 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	The pedang. The lamination on the blade is very beautiful! Who knows the meaning of the big H on the guard? Attached Images

18th March 2007, 01:14 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	... and the guradè. The decoration is the same on both sides of the blade. Unfortunatly no rhino for the hilt Attached Images

19th March 2007, 01:11 AM	#14
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Some images Some on Artzi's site http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02262/ph-4.jpg http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02168/ph-4.jpg http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...01161/ph-5.jpg http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02189/ph-4.jpg Last edited by RhysMichael; 19th March 2007 at 01:33 AM.

18th March 2007, 02:13 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	the bottom one has the lion of judah. ethiopia, perhaps?

18th March 2007, 02:49 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Ron, yes the guradè has the lion of judah on one side and it's a tipical ethiopan sword. Regards Flavio

18th March 2007, 08:49 PM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Flavio, I like the pedang blade! The mandau looks very touristy IMVHO... Regards, Kai

18th March 2007, 10:14 PM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	I think so but don't take my word for it! I hope Ben will chime in...

19th March 2007, 12:36 AM	#12
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	I don't know a lot about these, but aesthetically I'd have to agree on the first one, a very crude feel to it, "good enough for the stupid tourists with more money than taste". The blade may be heavy, but the workmanship on it is awfully crude. If I was an apprentice swordmaker I'd be afraid to show this to my master..... The other two blades more than make up for it though! Definitely nice examples of their types both of them. IF I had to accept one like the first one in order to get the next two, I think I could live with that!

19th March 2007, 01:37 AM	#15
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Flavio, Congrats... I really like the Pedang.. ..the influence of Hindu weapons seems unmistakable with the example you've posted. The hilt is great (very Khanda-ish) and the blade looks fantastic. The blade on the Gurade is also very nice.....is it European ? My knowledge of SEA weapons could be written on a postage stamp.....but the blade on the Mandau seems quite modern, the hilt has very little wear or patina. (yesterday I posted a recent Mandau.....functional, well balanced and basic with a good forged blade...but 40+ years old) Regards David

19th March 2007, 03:20 PM	#17
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Regarding the mandau, we just had a very excellent talk at the Timonium seminar on the subject, which informed that the carving on the handle had very strong religious significance. The stylized motifs each represented a specific aspect of the Dyak cosmology, and the mandau as a whole was meant to represent the cosmos in a way. Erik said that sometimes months, or even a year, were taken to carve the handle. In view of that, it seems very odd that the handle on this one is so roughly done and relatively unadorned. The lens shapes though are, I think, one of the traditional motifs - the leech.

19th March 2007, 06:39 PM	#18
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Mandau Hi all and thank you for your comments. On the Mandau: maybe from pictures it's hard to say but the blade is very nice and not crude at all with a beautiful inlaid work. I don't want to defende at any cost my piece but could be well that was collected early as the seller says: "The sword brought to the Netherlands by a Duth captain of the KPM steam package service who died in 1934. His first journey was in 1887 according to his grandson" Maybe this piece never had taken heads, as Ben would say, but I think that is quite old (early 900 at least), but i'm not an expert. For the handle: we see also good mandaus with completly undecorated hilts, but maybe this is not the case. Just thoughts for discussion

19th March 2007, 06:43 PM	#19
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Pedang Thank you very much John, as usual your help is fundamental! Yes the decoration seems an H for latin alphabet, but for arabic alphabet maybe means other or nothing (just decoration). But could be that this kind of decoration was influenced by the Dutch? Just an idea

19th March 2007, 06:46 PM	#20
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Guradè For the guradè, if I'm not wrong, Roano (ROANOA) told me that the blade is German of the end of '800, but without the GG stamped.

19th March 2007, 08:49 PM	#21
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi I am sorry but the mandau is an new one the handle is poorly carved and also the side knife and the blade. And I never read about that carving an Handle take s a year Mark. The Dajaks are expert in nice carvings Take a good look at the pics you can see what an handle and scabbard have to look like I am not an expert but before anyone buy s a weapon get good informed and visit an museum online or look for some good books and information and an real old nice mandau are hard to get . but that count for most other weapons too I think. Ben Attached Images

19th March 2007, 10:28 PM	#23
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Ben, thank you for your suggestion, I will do so for my future purchases, you're perfectly correct saying that before to buy one have to know more John, thank you very much I will look forward to see if you'll be able to find more

26th March 2007, 03:35 PM	#24
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,236	Dear Flavio, This mandau does not look like a traditional pieces that has been used. But I have seen this type before and they always appear to have some age. They are often a bit bigger and heavier than you would expect a mandau to be. and they are made much more rough / crude than a mandau for real use. The decorations are simpler, as on this one, the sideknifescabbards are often made of leather instead of bark. But they are decorated with old beads and tufts of hair, as on this one. I have now good info on the age, but I would think it to be an early tourist item. Best regards, Willem