Very Interesting Indian sword for discussion

B.I · 22nd February 2005, 09:32 AM

jim,
i know you are aware of the importance i put on my library, and the respect i have for the authors that occupy it. i feel all my books have a good reason for being there, whether as an academic minefield of information or just a great picture book.
my 'criticism' of references stemmed from trying to steer away from information that has been widely circulated but may have no real founding. i stick to my opinion of pant, feeling that he wrote some very helpful books on indian arms but he got enough wrong to classify them as good picture books and not academic resources.
i dont have a problem with radu's gujerat theory, as he clearly states it is supposition. if he takes this from pant, as well as his own experience then you can agree or disagree, but as this is no real information, it must be taken at face value.
with all the information i've tried to provide in influences, there were none to determine direct origins. yes, the north were heavily influenced by persia in the mughal courts, but so were the sultanates of the south.
as a feeling, with no firm support, i would think this sword hails from south india as, besides the persian influence, it has that feel. this opinion has no more, nor less grounding than radus gujerat and not something we can ever argue against. ths post has been very informative all round, in both the information provided and the opinions offered. as long as we clearly define the two, there can be no confusion.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2005, 02:33 PM

Hi Rick,
Maybe it is stylized flowers shown on your hilt, but I am not sure.
I would like to show you some examples, but I think I better do this in another thread, otherwise your thread will end up in a mess, and that would be a pity.
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2005, 05:35 PM

Maratha. 18th to 19th Century.
From Holstein: Contribution a L’etude des Armes Orientales. Vol. II, Pl. VII, No 244.

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2005, 02:10 AM

Hi Brian,
Extremely well said, and we are in complete agreement on these points. I always find it difficult when a published work does reveal flaws or errors as I have spoken out often on the importance of respecting an author's work.
As I had earlier noted, I agree that it is equally important for those who pursue research on the same subject matter to define key errors and offer revised data. This must be done with caution, so as not to demean the author himself.
I think that you always employ such respectful candor in regard to such work , and your observations are most important, considering the wealth of knowledge you have garnered in the research you have done on Indian weapons.

I also agree with you on the 'feel' of this weapon, which as you note seems to suggest southern India, and agree that it is at this point mostly the gestalt of the weapon rather than any particular evidence which brings this perception. After the inclination toward that attribution, I think the weapon Jens illustrated offers some support toward our theory, with a Maratha weapon with similar fleuret form quillon terminals. I had been considering the collateral Tipu-esque characteristics and the fact that Hyder and Tipu were both highly influenced by the French militarily as well. Again, all of this is ,as you say, speculation with a degree of plausibility, and not necessarily evidence.

I think Radu is extremely observant in his suggestion on possible Gujerat provenance, and think it is important to bring all theories and possibilities to the table for discussion, as we have here. Now to bring in any supporting evidence that may provide support for that suggestion, as well as to add to any for the southern India provenance. Actually all of this may be a formidable task, as trade and Mughal suzerainty consistantly connected regions from the northwest, to Hyderabad and Mysore in central southern India. Persian influence prevailed throughout the Mughal empire, therefore the observation concerning such influence in this sword is also well placed.

All the best,
Jim

B.I · 24th February 2005, 08:45 AM

hi jim,
i agree, that its difficult to criticise authors that you may not completely agree with, but still hold in great esteem for the efforts and work they provided. i suppose if you take any book and just pull out the raw facts, without the opinions and lifted data, then you wouldnt be left with much (a lot of pictures). i respect all authours for having the guts, and the time and inclination to publish. i respect tirris efforts as, whether you agree or disagree with him, its still a useful book.
all we can do is note references and influences, as all else is speculation. whether we agree on other opinions or not, i suppose we have to respect them as they have founding as much as your own (as long as it clearly stated to be speculation

).
my feeling has always been south and the floral quillions in jens' image shows this influence. the mysore pieces from tipu/hyder ali also show this, and the pieces in the clive collection back this up. however, the floral quillion was also prevelant on mughal miniatures from the north and so this feeling lends towards assumption. when hard data lacks, all you have to go by is your own feeling and experiences, but this doesnt lend to a forum discussion. if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum

Andrew · 25th February 2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum

So do you want to tell me about your parents now or later, Brian?

Andrew · 25th February 2005, 06:26 AM

I've defended works like Stone's in the past, and will continue to do so. Every published work contributes to our collective knowlege in some way, even with mistakes.

22nd February 2005, 05:35 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Maratha. 18th to 19th Century. From Holstein: Contribution a L’etude des Armes Orientales. Vol. II, Pl. VII, No 244. Attached Images

22nd February 2005, 09:32 AM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	jim, i know you are aware of the importance i put on my library, and the respect i have for the authors that occupy it. i feel all my books have a good reason for being there, whether as an academic minefield of information or just a great picture book. my 'criticism' of references stemmed from trying to steer away from information that has been widely circulated but may have no real founding. i stick to my opinion of pant, feeling that he wrote some very helpful books on indian arms but he got enough wrong to classify them as good picture books and not academic resources. i dont have a problem with radu's gujerat theory, as he clearly states it is supposition. if he takes this from pant, as well as his own experience then you can agree or disagree, but as this is no real information, it must be taken at face value. with all the information i've tried to provide in influences, there were none to determine direct origins. yes, the north were heavily influenced by persia in the mughal courts, but so were the sultanates of the south. as a feeling, with no firm support, i would think this sword hails from south india as, besides the persian influence, it has that feel. this opinion has no more, nor less grounding than radus gujerat and not something we can ever argue against. ths post has been very informative all round, in both the information provided and the opinions offered. as long as we clearly define the two, there can be no confusion.

22nd February 2005, 02:33 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, Maybe it is stylized flowers shown on your hilt, but I am not sure. I would like to show you some examples, but I think I better do this in another thread, otherwise your thread will end up in a mess, and that would be a pity. Jens

24th February 2005, 02:10 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,668	Hi Brian, Extremely well said, and we are in complete agreement on these points. I always find it difficult when a published work does reveal flaws or errors as I have spoken out often on the importance of respecting an author's work. As I had earlier noted, I agree that it is equally important for those who pursue research on the same subject matter to define key errors and offer revised data. This must be done with caution, so as not to demean the author himself. I think that you always employ such respectful candor in regard to such work , and your observations are most important, considering the wealth of knowledge you have garnered in the research you have done on Indian weapons. I also agree with you on the 'feel' of this weapon, which as you note seems to suggest southern India, and agree that it is at this point mostly the gestalt of the weapon rather than any particular evidence which brings this perception. After the inclination toward that attribution, I think the weapon Jens illustrated offers some support toward our theory, with a Maratha weapon with similar fleuret form quillon terminals. I had been considering the collateral Tipu-esque characteristics and the fact that Hyder and Tipu were both highly influenced by the French militarily as well. Again, all of this is ,as you say, speculation with a degree of plausibility, and not necessarily evidence. I think Radu is extremely observant in his suggestion on possible Gujerat provenance, and think it is important to bring all theories and possibilities to the table for discussion, as we have here. Now to bring in any supporting evidence that may provide support for that suggestion, as well as to add to any for the southern India provenance. Actually all of this may be a formidable task, as trade and Mughal suzerainty consistantly connected regions from the northwest, to Hyderabad and Mysore in central southern India. Persian influence prevailed throughout the Mughal empire, therefore the observation concerning such influence in this sword is also well placed. All the best, Jim

24th February 2005, 08:45 AM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, i agree, that its difficult to criticise authors that you may not completely agree with, but still hold in great esteem for the efforts and work they provided. i suppose if you take any book and just pull out the raw facts, without the opinions and lifted data, then you wouldnt be left with much (a lot of pictures). i respect all authours for having the guts, and the time and inclination to publish. i respect tirris efforts as, whether you agree or disagree with him, its still a useful book. all we can do is note references and influences, as all else is speculation. whether we agree on other opinions or not, i suppose we have to respect them as they have founding as much as your own (as long as it clearly stated to be speculation ). my feeling has always been south and the floral quillions in jens' image shows this influence. the mysore pieces from tipu/hyder ali also show this, and the pieces in the clive collection back this up. however, the floral quillion was also prevelant on mughal miniatures from the north and so this feeling lends towards assumption. when hard data lacks, all you have to go by is your own feeling and experiences, but this doesnt lend to a forum discussion. if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum

25th February 2005, 06:26 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I've defended works like Stone's in the past, and will continue to do so. Every published work contributes to our collective knowlege in some way, even with mistakes.