Tulwar Vs sabre.

Chris Evans · 27th February 2007, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Chris,
Very interesting obsevations.
Richard Burton may have had contempt for Indian swordsmanship, (not understanding 'the point') but it must have been he never tried the point with a Tulwar,......It would be very hard to thrust straight with one!

Precisely!

Cheers
Chris

Pukka Bundook · 27th February 2007, 03:05 PM

Jens,
Thank you for the explanation, re. what was inherited with these swords,
ie, Not only the weapon, but Also its history and Spirit.
This little statement has given me a Much better understanding of "how it was"
I feel so often, we can limit our understanding of an object by reducing it to a matter of bare bones, (ie, wood, metal or whatever) and limit our study to these 'bare bones', when really, the 'object' of our obsevation can be the key to passage into an incredibly rich "other world" that we may otherwise have never had opportunity to enter!.............. A place where real history can be fleshed out...
Thank you again!!
I must look for a copy of Elgood's book.

Jim,
Thank you for your input!
Re, British sword quality, I believe you are right about the slow decline in usefulness.
At Multan, in 1848, John Kennedy, in a letter home states; "Markham broke his sword in a Sikhs body,and then floored him with his fists....many officers and men were engaged in this way, and the number of blades broken testifies to the mediocrity of our sword cutlery. I could fill my paper twice over with minor events of this kind". (Sahib, p386)
It appears even prior to this, the Tulwar had certain appeal.
In this book It states Arthur Wellesley usually carried a plain but well proportioned Indian sword..(361)
Also states most of the problem with the British blades, was blunting through drill with metal scabbards....as you previously mentioned.

Spiral,
I must agree, Most Sikh gentlemen I have met are fine chaps! not small by any standards........with hands to match!

Chris,
An enchanting little memo from the same book, re. slicing rather than thrusting.
( paraphraed!)
In the action at Ramnagar, a certain Sgt Clifton and comrades ,14th light dragoons, was ordered to advance whilst resing in a field eating turnips.
The sgt. slipped a turnip into his shako for later consumption.
In the following action his horse was shot under him, he was surrounded and the top of his shako cut to shreds and his turnip to slices without touching his head!
Seems he escaped with a few light scratches to his shoulders....
I can just imagine his little sliced turnip, still sitting neatly on his head!....

All the best,
Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th February 2007, 04:07 PM

Hi Richard,

One very fundamental difference about the way the Westerners and the Indians look/looked on a sword is, that the Westerner regarded it as a sword only, maybe with a little bit of affection if someone in the family had used it, but to the Indians it was much more that that. The decoration also seems to have had a far deeper meaning that only the decoration – but I an digging into that at the moment, so when I know more I will write about it, although the informations are far apart.

When looking for Elgood's book, try ABE Books on the net, I think you will find a good buy in India.

Pukka Bundook · 28th February 2007, 02:27 PM

Thank you Jens,
I will look there for the book.
Re. the decoration, by the very small bit of information I have garnered,
it would appear that making the sword an attractive "home" for the right entity was very important!
I really look forward to your findings on this subject.

Best wishes, R.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th February 2007, 04:30 PM

Wronge topic - sorry.

Pukka Bundook · 28th February 2007, 08:53 PM

Don't worry Jens, I read your reply on the 'other' thread!
Jens,
Re. knowing which flower on the decoration represents which actual flower, I deduce this is of some importance in attracting the right entity?
Very fascinating!

Thank you for the tips re. Robert's book.

Found in the book "Sahib" another hint why the Tulwar cut so well.

In a fray with a Sikh warrior, a certain officer lost his hand to a cut delivered by his adversary, "with a hissing sound like an English pavier laying a slab"
(Paraphrased, don't have book with me at mo)
this would seem his adversary delivered the blow with all he had,....not holding back.
Interestingly, I've found myself emitting a similar sound when splitting stubborn fire-wood!...........You give it all you've got, right down to your socks!!
This I do find interesting, on account of the Indian practice of using a shield;
An English soldier had to use his sword for parrying as well as attack, So, probably would have to be more guarded in delivering his cuts, as a quick recovery of the sword hand would be nescessary.
With the Indian soldier, the shield would be used for parrying if needed in the much longer recovery time of a cut delivered with all his strength.

This is just a theory. any thoughts?

28th February 2007, 08:53 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Don't worry Jens, I read your reply on the 'other' thread! Jens, Re. knowing which flower on the decoration represents which actual flower, I deduce this is of some importance in attracting the right entity? Very fascinating! Thank you for the tips re. Robert's book. Found in the book "Sahib" another hint why the Tulwar cut so well. In a fray with a Sikh warrior, a certain officer lost his hand to a cut delivered by his adversary, "with a hissing sound like an English pavier laying a slab" (Paraphrased, don't have book with me at mo) this would seem his adversary delivered the blow with all he had,....not holding back. Interestingly, I've found myself emitting a similar sound when splitting stubborn fire-wood!...........You give it all you've got, right down to your socks!! This I do find interesting, on account of the Indian practice of using a shield; An English soldier had to use his sword for parrying as well as attack, So, probably would have to be more guarded in delivering his cuts, as a quick recovery of the sword hand would be nescessary. With the Indian soldier, the shield would be used for parrying if needed in the much longer recovery time of a cut delivered with all his strength. This is just a theory. any thoughts? Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 1st March 2007 at 02:18 PM.

27th February 2007, 03:05 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens, Thank you for the explanation, re. what was inherited with these swords, ie, Not only the weapon, but Also its history and Spirit. This little statement has given me a Much better understanding of "how it was" I feel so often, we can limit our understanding of an object by reducing it to a matter of bare bones, (ie, wood, metal or whatever) and limit our study to these 'bare bones', when really, the 'object' of our obsevation can be the key to passage into an incredibly rich "other world" that we may otherwise have never had opportunity to enter!.............. A place where real history can be fleshed out... Thank you again!! I must look for a copy of Elgood's book. Jim, Thank you for your input! Re, British sword quality, I believe you are right about the slow decline in usefulness. At Multan, in 1848, John Kennedy, in a letter home states; "Markham broke his sword in a Sikhs body,and then floored him with his fists....many officers and men were engaged in this way, and the number of blades broken testifies to the mediocrity of our sword cutlery. I could fill my paper twice over with minor events of this kind". (Sahib, p386) It appears even prior to this, the Tulwar had certain appeal. In this book It states Arthur Wellesley usually carried a plain but well proportioned Indian sword..(361) Also states most of the problem with the British blades, was blunting through drill with metal scabbards....as you previously mentioned. Spiral, I must agree, Most Sikh gentlemen I have met are fine chaps! not small by any standards........with hands to match! Chris, An enchanting little memo from the same book, re. slicing rather than thrusting. ( paraphraed!) In the action at Ramnagar, a certain Sgt Clifton and comrades ,14th light dragoons, was ordered to advance whilst resing in a field eating turnips. The sgt. slipped a turnip into his shako for later consumption. In the following action his horse was shot under him, he was surrounded and the top of his shako cut to shreds and his turnip to slices without touching his head! Seems he escaped with a few light scratches to his shoulders.... I can just imagine his little sliced turnip, still sitting neatly on his head!.... All the best, Richard.

27th February 2007, 04:07 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Richard, One very fundamental difference about the way the Westerners and the Indians look/looked on a sword is, that the Westerner regarded it as a sword only, maybe with a little bit of affection if someone in the family had used it, but to the Indians it was much more that that. The decoration also seems to have had a far deeper meaning that only the decoration – but I an digging into that at the moment, so when I know more I will write about it, although the informations are far apart. When looking for Elgood's book, try ABE Books on the net, I think you will find a good buy in India.

28th February 2007, 02:27 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thank you Jens, I will look there for the book. Re. the decoration, by the very small bit of information I have garnered, it would appear that making the sword an attractive "home" for the right entity was very important! I really look forward to your findings on this subject. Best wishes, R.

28th February 2007, 04:30 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Wronge topic - sorry.