KERIS WITH IVORY HILT

David · 17th February 2007, 06:38 PM

Nice catch Carlos. The blade isn't extraordinary, but it is a good solid example of a gonjo iras blade with what is to my eye a rather attractive profile. Shame about the sheath, though it does look like those might actually be silver fittings. It would be impossible to have a top sheath carved for this, though matching and fitting everything might be difficult. But the hilt alone is worth way more than you paid for the whole thing so i would say you did well. Looks Sumatran to me, maybe Minang Kabau based on the hilt form. How long is the blade?

carlos · 17th February 2007, 08:06 PM

THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION, I LOVE THE IVORY HILTS, THIS IS THE REASON I´M VERY HAPPY WITH THIS KERIS.
THE BLADE HAS 11.5 INCH.
REGARDS
CARLOS

BluErf · 18th February 2007, 01:27 AM

Hi,

Judging from the blade form and hilt, I would associate it with Lampung, South Sumatra. As I hear from more senior collectors here in Singapore, the hilt has "Mickey Mouse ears"; It is quite a distinctive form. Most Minang Kabau kerises, which I would consider more Central Sumatra, are of the bahari form and seldom ganja iras. Non-bahari Minang kerises tend to look more Bugis than Javanese. South Sumatra kerises tend to have a more Javanese look to it. Like any generalisations, there would be exceptions to these assertions.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2007, 02:49 AM

Yeah, I thought it looked a bit South Sumateraish too.

That type of blade seems to be associated with that part of the world more so than with other places.

David · 18th February 2007, 01:43 PM

Yep, i am sure you guys are probably right on this one. At least i was on the right island.

Alam Shah · 22nd February 2007, 02:50 PM

The 'mickey mouse' hilt form, spans quite a large geographical region in Sumatra. There are examples on Palembang, Minang and many other pieces.

Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.)

Michael (VVV) have examples of this hilt form on various types of Sumatran keris.
On a Minangkabau's keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

On a Palembang keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

In Van Duuren's, The Kris, Page 54, there is a similar form which mentioned it as from South Sumatra.

In Kerner's, Keris-Griffe - Aus Dem Malayischen Archipel, Page 52, Fig: 40, another 'mickey mouse' but only indicated as from Sumatra.

As for whatever left of the sheath, and the blade, it seems Central Sumatra to me.

"Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic').

Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values.

David · 22nd February 2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.)

"Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic').

Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values.

Thanks Shahrial. Adni's assessment is what i based my first guess on.

This info on gonjo iras is very interesting to me. As you state, we have had this discussion before and i have never been quite satisfied with the answers.

If you have more information on the Malay mystical world view of these type of keris i would love to hear it.

BluErf · 4th March 2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The 'mickey mouse' hilt form, spans quite a large geographical region in Sumatra. There are examples on Palembang, Minang and many other pieces.

Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.)

Michael (VVV) have examples of this hilt form on various types of Sumatran keris.
On a Minangkabau's keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

On a Palembang keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

In Van Duuren's, The Kris, Page 54, there is a similar form which mentioned it as from South Sumatra.

In Kerner's, Keris-Griffe - Aus Dem Malayischen Archipel, Page 52, Fig: 40, another 'mickey mouse' but only indicated as from Sumatra.

As for whatever left of the sheath, and the blade, it seems Central Sumatra to me.

"Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic').

Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values.

Hi Shahrial,

If you look carefully, you are seeing 2 stylistically similar but different hilt forms. The examples you have placed there have ears which don't flare out, but goes straight up the head. A "U" shape.

Carlos' keris hilt has ears that flare out. A "V" shape. Here's another example, though I apologize I only have the side view of it. This hilt is in Paul De Souza's collection. It is a wide "V" shape.

Another thing we can take note - the eyes are different. The minang hilts have more bulging eyes while the "lampung-style" hilts are more "se-daging" (flush with the form) defined by shallow lines.

The blade is not a bahari or an anak alang in my opinion. The greneng doesn't look appropriate. The gandik is too broad and high. The blade is too broad and flat.

Alam Shah · 23rd February 2007, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

... It would be impossible to have a top sheath carved for this, though matching and fitting everything might be difficult. ... Looks Sumatran to me, maybe Minang Kabau based on the hilt form. How long is the blade?

For the missing crosspiece, it could be re-made. The shaft joint to the crosspiece portion is intact. (PM me if you couldn't get anyone to do it.)

It should look something like this.
(Picture courtesy of VVV).

David · 23rd February 2007, 03:55 AM

Oops! That was a typo on my part. I had meant to write that it would be possible which is why i followed it up with "though matching and fitting everything might be difficult".

Though come to think of it, it really wouldn't be anymore difficult than making a sheath from scratch. Not that it is ever an easy job.

rahman · 26th February 2007, 04:10 AM

Sorry David for not replying earlier.

The sorsoran does have some similarity. Although most baharis tend to be thein and slender, this one has a nice waist (pinggang) that you do find among some baharis.

It was my immediate reaction. I could be wrong, though.

Carlos -- how long is the blade, anyway?

carlos · 26th February 2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

Sorry David for not replying earlier.

The sorsoran does have some similarity. Although most baharis tend to be thein and slender, this one has a nice waist (pinggang) that you do find among some baharis.

It was my immediate reaction. I could be wrong, though.

Carlos -- how long is the blade, anyway?

Hello rahma!!
Is 11.5 inch., if you need more pictures i can make more.
Thanks
Carlos

rahman · 2nd March 2007, 03:38 AM

No, I stand corrected. It's would be much too long to be a bahari.

Sorry!

David · 2nd March 2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

No, I stand corrected. It's would be much too long to be a bahari.
Sorry!

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but i guess this is as good a place as any for these questions. Obviously i don't think this is a bahari either, but more for matters of form rather than length. But is 11.5" really much too long for a bahari? The one i linked to earlier in this thread is about 11" long. Adni has at least two on his site in the sold section that are 12" long. Here is a link to one: http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...ory_2warna.htm
I have a anak alang that is just under 16", but i have also seen keris listed as anak alang as short as 12" or 13". Most of the full length panjangs i have seen are over 20".
So there appears to be a little bit of cross-over. Are some of these blades being mis-catagorized? How specific are these length limits? Could they be a bit different depending upon origin of the blade? Are there any other attribute other than length that distinguish a bahari from a anak alang from a full length panjang?

17th February 2007, 06:38 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,244	Nice catch Carlos. The blade isn't extraordinary, but it is a good solid example of a gonjo iras blade with what is to my eye a rather attractive profile. Shame about the sheath, though it does look like those might actually be silver fittings. It would be impossible to have a top sheath carved for this, though matching and fitting everything might be difficult. But the hilt alone is worth way more than you paid for the whole thing so i would say you did well. Looks Sumatran to me, maybe Minang Kabau based on the hilt form. How long is the blade? Last edited by David; 17th February 2007 at 08:14 PM.

17th February 2007, 08:06 PM	#2
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 755	thanks THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION, I LOVE THE IVORY HILTS, THIS IS THE REASON I´M VERY HAPPY WITH THIS KERIS. THE BLADE HAS 11.5 INCH. REGARDS CARLOS

18th February 2007, 01:27 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi, Judging from the blade form and hilt, I would associate it with Lampung, South Sumatra. As I hear from more senior collectors here in Singapore, the hilt has "Mickey Mouse ears"; It is quite a distinctive form. Most Minang Kabau kerises, which I would consider more Central Sumatra, are of the bahari form and seldom ganja iras. Non-bahari Minang kerises tend to look more Bugis than Javanese. South Sumatra kerises tend to have a more Javanese look to it. Like any generalisations, there would be exceptions to these assertions.

18th February 2007, 02:49 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,070	Yeah, I thought it looked a bit South Sumateraish too. That type of blade seems to be associated with that part of the world more so than with other places.

18th February 2007, 01:43 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,244	Yep, i am sure you guys are probably right on this one. At least i was on the right island.

22nd February 2007, 02:50 PM	#6
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	The 'mickey mouse' hilt form, spans quite a large geographical region in Sumatra. There are examples on Palembang, Minang and many other pieces. Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.) Michael (VVV) have examples of this hilt form on various types of Sumatran keris. On a Minangkabau's keris: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php On a Palembang keris: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php In Van Duuren's, The Kris, Page 54, there is a similar form which mentioned it as from South Sumatra. In Kerner's, Keris-Griffe - Aus Dem Malayischen Archipel, Page 52, Fig: 40, another 'mickey mouse' but only indicated as from Sumatra. As for whatever left of the sheath, and the blade, it seems Central Sumatra to me. "Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic'). Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values.

23rd February 2007, 03:55 AM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,244	Oops! That was a typo on my part. I had meant to write that it would be possible which is why i followed it up with "though matching and fitting everything might be difficult". Though come to think of it, it really wouldn't be anymore difficult than making a sheath from scratch. Not that it is ever an easy job.

26th February 2007, 04:10 AM	#11
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Sorry David for not replying earlier. The sorsoran does have some similarity. Although most baharis tend to be thein and slender, this one has a nice waist (pinggang) that you do find among some baharis. It was my immediate reaction. I could be wrong, though. Carlos -- how long is the blade, anyway?

2nd March 2007, 03:38 AM	#13
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	No, I stand corrected. It's would be much too long to be a bahari. Sorry!