steel and iron weaponry of the american natives.........

[Yanyeidi]

Here's another dagger from Angoon. This was isn't as old as the Killer Whale Dagger. This one is called Xoots Gwalaa (Brown Bear Dagger). It has abalone inlay in the eyes. It was returned to the Bear Clan by a museum in 1999.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Yanyeidi

Here's another dagger from Angoon. This was isn't as old as the Killer Whale Dagger. This one is called Xoots Gwalaa (Brown Bear Dagger). It has abalone inlay in the eyes. It was returned to the Bear Clan by a museum in 1999.

Say, do you suppose if someone had their geneaology mapped out well enough to trace their ancestry back to medeival times, they could start knocking on the doors of some of the European museums with big arms collections and demanding the return of their cultural heritage? "Yeah, I want that billhook, targe, claymore and dirk, they were all looted from my people after Culloden...."

[David]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

Say, do you suppose if someone had their geneaology mapped out well enough to trace their ancestry back to medeival times, they could start knocking on the doors of some of the European museums with big arms collections and demanding the return of their cultural heritage? "Yeah, I want that billhook, targe, claymore and dirk, they were all looted from my people after Culloden...."

Well, i would image that would depend upon whether or not the weapon had any deep religious, spiritual, and/or cultural significance to the community (tribe, people, nation) from which it was stolen.
Not as likely with a claymore or a dirk...

[Tim Simmons]

One might have to be a little more sensitive to these matters when it involves art works from communities that live in the same country/nation rather than trophies from foreign wars. I am not from the give back camp in latter case.

[David]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

One might have to be a little more sensitive to these matters when it involves art works from communities that live in the same country/nation rather than trophies from foreign wars. I am not from the give back camp in latter case.

Tim, daggers like the Brown Bear dagger Yanyeidi shows and the Killer Whale dagger i posted early may very well have been considered "trophies of war" by the Europeans who originally collected them, however these daggers were never meant nor used as weapons of war. They are ritual daggers with deep spiritual significance to their people which i can only image were looted since these daggers would never have been sold or traded to the European invaders. It would indeed be interesting to find out just how they ended up in these museums to begin with. I would not be as quick to advocate giving back battlefield pick-ups to their nation of origin. These daggers fall into a completely different catagory, don't you think? I comment the museums for having the frame of mind to do the right thing in these cases.

[Tim Simmons]

David I agree with you completely. One thing why these are possibly a little more specially sensitive is that the looters were equally Americans maybe more so than Europeans in this case. The looting of African palaces is not the same as battle field pick ups. I can justify a refusal to give back as I am in the UK and not African. Not terribly pleasant and a bit blunt. The Native American question is a little more difficult, I think?

[Yanyeidi]

NAGPRA allows for the return of human remains, objects looted from graves, and objects needed and used in ongoing ceremonies, and objects sold or otherwise removed that are communal property and not individually owned.

The Killer Whale Dagger was known as a "slave killer", but it was bragged about as having "never shed any blood." When a slave was brought out to be killed in the name of something this dagger would be pointed at the slave and a thrusting motion made. If the slave wasn't released, "it" would be killed with another dagger called "goox du een", a double ended dagger.

We have no idea how many slaves were put to death by this one dagger. To the family, it is priceless. When the caretaker sold it, it caused a rift in the family for many years.

Khaa dachxhan, a grandchild is usually called to carry the dagger in during our ceremonies, one whose paternal grandfather is from the clan that owns the dagger. Care is made never to point the dagger at anyone and to keep the tip covered.

At times of dispute the caretaker may flash the tip at someone he has a disagreement with,.."to get the point across" that the person is out of order. I've only seen this done once.

As for the Bear Dagger of the Teikhweidi clan, it was probably looted by the U.S. Navy during the shelling and sacking of the village of Angoon on October 18, 1882 in which six children died, all the canoes but one were destroyed, and all the winter supplies burned along with the houses. Several stories of this can be read by typing in these details in search fields.

One old man remembered his grandmother talking about this dagger-- his grandmother as a young woman had survived the bombardment but she didn't know what happened to the dagger afterwards.

Both daggers are back in ceremonial use. Today, they are pointed at the property to be given away as "it is killed." They are back where they belong, with life back in them, in a living culture.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

Say, do you suppose if someone had their geneaology mapped out well enough to trace their ancestry back to medeival times, they could start knocking on the doors of some of the European museums with big arms collections and demanding the return of their cultural heritage? "Yeah, I want that billhook, targe, claymore and dirk, they were all looted from my people after Culloden...."

This is happening in the world of art ; many of WWII's looted paintings are being recovered by their original owners or their descendants.