clunker saif?

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2007, 02:55 AM

These are some really interesting observations!!

and I think such constructive ideas are often very important in studying ethnographic weapons. One of my favorite quotes:
"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen,
and thinking what nobody has thought".
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

Actually the very interesting hilt structure of these sa'if/ nimchas has been studied and discussed numerous times over the years. It would seem that many of the features, especially the distinctive quillon, guard arrangement evolved from early Italian swords, and these influences were carried by mostly trade interaction from about the late 15th c. onward. Study on this development was discussed by Anthony North in 1975 ( "A Late 15th c. Italian Sword", in 'The Connoisseur' Dec.1975).

Prior to this, the catalog of the collections of Charles Buttin (Rumilly, France, 1933) shows numerous examples of these sa'if, those with the distinct ring on the crossguard noted as 'Arab' without any reference to 'Zanzibar' attribution. I believe the Zanzibar association developed with its prominence as a trade center, and prevalence of furbishers and outfitters there who produced examples of earlier Arab swords with both trade and native blades there in the 19th c. It does seem that the ring guard has been established as typically found on these sa'if known to have come from Zanzibar, but they do not seem to have been necessarily indiginous prior to examples produced later in the 19th c. there.In the Buttin reference, examples of these sa'if without the ring guard and with the multiple downward quillons were invariably labelled Moroccan. Interestingly, I believe the ring guards are reflections also of early Italian swords, which often had these as the more complex guards developed.

While this material on the development of these hilts presents the results of existing and much earlier researches, I find the suggestions made most interesting and never discount the possibilities of the many ways key influences may have been selected.

All best regards,
Jim

FenrisWolf · 15th February 2007, 03:09 AM

It also never hurts to try and get inside the heads of those who made and used such weapons. There is little practical reason for such an ornate hilt that would not be equally served by a simpler design. so what was the aesthetic that attracted the weaponsmith? Perhaps an early artisan noticed the similarity between the basic design and the calligraphy for 'Allah'; perhaps it was away of avoiding producing weapons whose hilts were also the 'sign of the cross'. At this late date no one is likely to know for sure, but it never hurts to speculate so long as one remembers to keep an open mind and not become over-attached to any one theory, at least until such time as there is sufficient evidence to choose one in preference over others.

Pukka Bundook · 15th February 2007, 05:28 AM

Well I'm still with you chaps, and find it all very fascinating!

Katana's observation appears to me very possible.

I do not know how many known examples of sa'ifs have a guard like this one.
The ones I have seen either have a 'D' ring, or 'quillons' that taper out and down, away from the blade, not curling in in the manner of a ring guard.

One observation I can make, is this sword is very handy, fast and very comfortable to hold, with the finger over the cross.
Held in this manner it really comes to life, Yet, the very few other examples of sa'ifs I have seen pictures of appear to pre-clude holding in this manner. (no-where for finger to go!)
The sword does appear to hav been held in this manner, as the sharp corner of the cross is worn down much smoother in the finger area.
I know these obsevations are pointless from an historical point of view, but it may help us understand this specific ring shaping.

I must thank all for sharing in this discussion!!

Best,
Richard.

ariel · 15th February 2007, 01:34 PM

If Jim's info about the Italian predecessors of these guards is correct ( and I tend always to believe him!), then the "Allah" theory becomes even less probable.

Pukka Bundook · 15th February 2007, 03:10 PM

I agree that Italian and Allah don't really go together!

But as can be plainly seen, this is not an Italian style hilt. This in my mind does not mean that there are no Italian influences here.
The way I see it, An Italian hilt has certain merits, and these merits could have been incorporated into a locally manufactured hilt.

The Italian hilt has the advantage of being able to wrap the index finger over the cross, and still be protected by the ring.
If this was seen as an advantage and incorpoated in the hilt in question, then it is merely an incorporation of the Idea, and not incorporation of actual design.
The local design/style could have just been worked around the sound principles of the italian style..........Therefore the tight little knuckle-guard and "Allah" could be incorporated as well as anything else!

But then again What do I know?!!!

15th February 2007, 02:55 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	These are some really interesting observations!! and I think such constructive ideas are often very important in studying ethnographic weapons. One of my favorite quotes: "...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what nobody has thought". -Albert von Szent-Gyorgy Actually the very interesting hilt structure of these sa'if/ nimchas has been studied and discussed numerous times over the years. It would seem that many of the features, especially the distinctive quillon, guard arrangement evolved from early Italian swords, and these influences were carried by mostly trade interaction from about the late 15th c. onward. Study on this development was discussed by Anthony North in 1975 ( "A Late 15th c. Italian Sword", in 'The Connoisseur' Dec.1975). Prior to this, the catalog of the collections of Charles Buttin (Rumilly, France, 1933) shows numerous examples of these sa'if, those with the distinct ring on the crossguard noted as 'Arab' without any reference to 'Zanzibar' attribution. I believe the Zanzibar association developed with its prominence as a trade center, and prevalence of furbishers and outfitters there who produced examples of earlier Arab swords with both trade and native blades there in the 19th c. It does seem that the ring guard has been established as typically found on these sa'if known to have come from Zanzibar, but they do not seem to have been necessarily indiginous prior to examples produced later in the 19th c. there.In the Buttin reference, examples of these sa'if without the ring guard and with the multiple downward quillons were invariably labelled Moroccan. Interestingly, I believe the ring guards are reflections also of early Italian swords, which often had these as the more complex guards developed. While this material on the development of these hilts presents the results of existing and much earlier researches, I find the suggestions made most interesting and never discount the possibilities of the many ways key influences may have been selected. All best regards, Jim

15th February 2007, 03:09 AM	#2
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	It also never hurts to try and get inside the heads of those who made and used such weapons. There is little practical reason for such an ornate hilt that would not be equally served by a simpler design. so what was the aesthetic that attracted the weaponsmith? Perhaps an early artisan noticed the similarity between the basic design and the calligraphy for 'Allah'; perhaps it was away of avoiding producing weapons whose hilts were also the 'sign of the cross'. At this late date no one is likely to know for sure, but it never hurts to speculate so long as one remembers to keep an open mind and not become over-attached to any one theory, at least until such time as there is sufficient evidence to choose one in preference over others.

15th February 2007, 05:28 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Well I'm still with you chaps, and find it all very fascinating! Katana's observation appears to me very possible. I do not know how many known examples of sa'ifs have a guard like this one. The ones I have seen either have a 'D' ring, or 'quillons' that taper out and down, away from the blade, not curling in in the manner of a ring guard. One observation I can make, is this sword is very handy, fast and very comfortable to hold, with the finger over the cross. Held in this manner it really comes to life, Yet, the very few other examples of sa'ifs I have seen pictures of appear to pre-clude holding in this manner. (no-where for finger to go!) The sword does appear to hav been held in this manner, as the sharp corner of the cross is worn down much smoother in the finger area. I know these obsevations are pointless from an historical point of view, but it may help us understand this specific ring shaping. I must thank all for sharing in this discussion!! Best, Richard.

15th February 2007, 01:34 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If Jim's info about the Italian predecessors of these guards is correct ( and I tend always to believe him!), then the "Allah" theory becomes even less probable.

15th February 2007, 03:10 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I agree that Italian and Allah don't really go together! But as can be plainly seen, this is not an Italian style hilt. This in my mind does not mean that there are no Italian influences here. The way I see it, An Italian hilt has certain merits, and these merits could have been incorporated into a locally manufactured hilt. The Italian hilt has the advantage of being able to wrap the index finger over the cross, and still be protected by the ring. If this was seen as an advantage and incorpoated in the hilt in question, then it is merely an incorporation of the Idea, and not incorporation of actual design. The local design/style could have just been worked around the sound principles of the italian style..........Therefore the tight little knuckle-guard and "Allah" could be incorporated as well as anything else! But then again What do I know?!!!