Sword ID

TVV · 13th February 2007, 03:42 AM

The blade profile is diffirent that the one on takoubas, but some of them were mounted with European broadsword blades, so I wonder if this could be a local imitation of such a broadsword blade? It looks like it was certainly locally made.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2007, 03:33 AM

Hi TVV,
You're right about the use of European trade blades in takoubas, but it seems that takoubas invariably had rounded points, while this blade, distinctly heavier than most takouba blades, clearly has the kaskara spear point. I am inclined to think that since European blades were typically altered in that manner, they would have kept to that peculiarity.
Having noted that, I would rethink my comment suggesting that an Omani kattara may have been remounted in Mali, as the kattara tends to have a rounded tip in the examples I have seen, thus would not correspond with this blade.

I have always wondered how two broadsword forms such as the kaskara and takouba have remained distinctly separate forms, despite the well known diffusion of edged weapons throughout North Africa.

Best regards,
Jim

TVV · 14th February 2007, 03:45 AM

Jim,
You are as always absolutely correct that there are many differences between takoubas' blades and this one - not only the point, but also the blades on takoubas tend to taper towards the tip, while the edges on this one are parallel. I guess by method of elimination this may actually turn out to be a kaskara blade after all.
Regards,
Teodor

katana · 14th February 2007, 11:21 AM

Looking at the first pictures posted I had assumed that the blade was relatively thin. The 'point' had been noted....but thought that it had been 're-profiled'.
The blade 'close-ups' tell a different story. The blade is relatively thick.....IMHO of local manufacture....and with parallel edges and the 'point' ...as already stated ....seems to suggest a re-hilted Kaskara. The lack of the 'moon' stamps also, I feel, confirms that this is not Takouba.
I cannot tell whether the 3 'fullers' have been ground out or chiselled, enhanced pictures suggest that they were ground out with an angle grinder but I am no where near 'sure'.

The blade seems younger than its 100 years, but, there is the possiblity that the blade had been 'over hauled' (cleaned, it would lose all its patina) prior to 're-hilting'.

If the 'fullers' were formed by an angle grinder at the time this blade was first manufactured ......it would have been 'too young' to have been at Omdurman....

Still, nevertheless a very nice sword

ABooth · 14th February 2007, 02:59 PM

Many thanks to all for the input. I liked the decorations on the scabbard and on the hilt and found the possible place of origin very interesting. Again Thanks. ABooth

Lew · 14th February 2007, 03:32 PM

Booth

I think this is a variation of a Manding sword with a straight blade probably from a kaskara as far as age goes I would place this between 1898-1920. Here is two of mine with an older European blades. After taking a closer at your sword I think it could possibly be from the late 1890s to 1900. Gentlemen take a good look at the leather on the scabbard it does have a nice old patina and just because the blade is very clean that may not mean a newer sword. I have some older daggers from 1898-1900 and the blades are emaculate. Maybe the warrior was killed at the begining of the battle before he had a chance to use his sword??? You never know

Lew

Tim Simmons · 14th February 2007, 04:41 PM

I have ww2 knives with worse condition leather work and blades, and old knives in very good condition as no doubt we all have. So looks can deceive, it all depends on how well things have been kept in the past. This looks like a sword from the western Sahara with a straight blade.

Looking at the fullers it could well be forged locally. Spear point blades are not unkown on the more serious fighting arm knives and other weapons.

14th February 2007, 02:59 PM	#5
ABooth Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3	Sword ID Many thanks to all for the input. I liked the decorations on the scabbard and on the hilt and found the possible place of origin very interesting. Again Thanks. ABooth

14th February 2007, 03:32 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Booth I think this is a variation of a Manding sword with a straight blade probably from a kaskara as far as age goes I would place this between 1898-1920. Here is two of mine with an older European blades. After taking a closer at your sword I think it could possibly be from the late 1890s to 1900. Gentlemen take a good look at the leather on the scabbard it does have a nice old patina and just because the blade is very clean that may not mean a newer sword. I have some older daggers from 1898-1900 and the blades are emaculate. Maybe the warrior was killed at the begining of the battle before he had a chance to use his sword??? You never know Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 14th February 2007 at 03:53 PM.

13th February 2007, 03:42 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	The blade profile is diffirent that the one on takoubas, but some of them were mounted with European broadsword blades, so I wonder if this could be a local imitation of such a broadsword blade? It looks like it was certainly locally made.

14th February 2007, 03:33 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Hi TVV, You're right about the use of European trade blades in takoubas, but it seems that takoubas invariably had rounded points, while this blade, distinctly heavier than most takouba blades, clearly has the kaskara spear point. I am inclined to think that since European blades were typically altered in that manner, they would have kept to that peculiarity. Having noted that, I would rethink my comment suggesting that an Omani kattara may have been remounted in Mali, as the kattara tends to have a rounded tip in the examples I have seen, thus would not correspond with this blade. I have always wondered how two broadsword forms such as the kaskara and takouba have remained distinctly separate forms, despite the well known diffusion of edged weapons throughout North Africa. Best regards, Jim

14th February 2007, 03:45 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Jim, You are as always absolutely correct that there are many differences between takoubas' blades and this one - not only the point, but also the blades on takoubas tend to taper towards the tip, while the edges on this one are parallel. I guess by method of elimination this may actually turn out to be a kaskara blade after all. Regards, Teodor

14th February 2007, 11:21 AM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Looking at the first pictures posted I had assumed that the blade was relatively thin. The 'point' had been noted....but thought that it had been 're-profiled'. The blade 'close-ups' tell a different story. The blade is relatively thick.....IMHO of local manufacture....and with parallel edges and the 'point' ...as already stated ....seems to suggest a re-hilted Kaskara. The lack of the 'moon' stamps also, I feel, confirms that this is not Takouba. I cannot tell whether the 3 'fullers' have been ground out or chiselled, enhanced pictures suggest that they were ground out with an angle grinder but I am no where near 'sure'. The blade seems younger than its 100 years, but, there is the possiblity that the blade had been 'over hauled' (cleaned, it would lose all its patina) prior to 're-hilting'. If the 'fullers' were formed by an angle grinder at the time this blade was first manufactured ......it would have been 'too young' to have been at Omdurman.... Still, nevertheless a very nice sword

14th February 2007, 04:41 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I have ww2 knives with worse condition leather work and blades, and old knives in very good condition as no doubt we all have. So looks can deceive, it all depends on how well things have been kept in the past. This looks like a sword from the western Sahara with a straight blade. Looking at the fullers it could well be forged locally. Spear point blades are not unkown on the more serious fighting arm knives and other weapons.