Flyssas

katana · 5th February 2007, 12:42 PM

A very interesting idea, the origins of the Flyssa seems unclear (as you probably know) .It will be interesting to see what others think .... I am sure Manolo (Emanuel) and Jim will add comments

Andrew · 5th February 2007, 01:26 PM

That's an interesting idea.

Check out the "Big Flyssa Thread" in the "Classics" Sticky. Welcome to the forum.

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2007, 03:28 PM

Thats an excellent observation!!! and exactly the kind of thinking that often presents great clues in the study of weapons development. Very impressive, and actually I had never noticed that particular similarity.
It is well known that many ethnographic weapons bear striking similarity to ancient weapons found typically in iconographic sources. Atavistic forms have often been believed to have been the influence in many later developed weapons in various cultures. Clearly the Greek kopis, the machaira and the Egyptian khopesh are prime examples.

The flyssa is a relative newcomer among many of the swords of North Africa, and its origins are somewhat obscure and obviously widely debated. I am inclined to believe that it likely is derived from early forms of yataghan with somewhat the same deep bellied blade form, as seen in the c.1510 example shown in "The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent" (1990, p.64, #50). There is clearly a considerable gap in time from the period of this weapon to the first known appearance of the flyssa c.1827, but again the expanses of time between the kopis' and machaira that likely were the inspiration for the Ottoman weapon are obviously as broad, and demonstrate the atavistic perspective descibed.

In using the search feature here, it will be seen that there have been many discussions on the flyssa, especially on how it may have been used in combat. Its use in combat seems supported as I have discovered one among the holdings of a Foreign Legion museum in France which was taken in battle in 1857. Much as the Black Sea 'cousin'

of these interesting swords, the flyssa left the working weapon group in a short period, probably about the early part of the 20th c.

Best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 5th February 2007, 04:35 PM

Hello!
That's a very interesting theory, with the big problem being how the transition took place between the bronze age sword and the flyssa. How des one get from a double-edged blade to a single edged? Maybe the similarity is purely aesthetic, and maybe there is domething to it. The same problem applies to the yataghan/flyssa relationship, where, as Jim noted, there is a bit of a gap in documentation.

As Andrew suggested

check out the Big Flyssa Thread, it contains all the discussions ( I think) about these fantastic weapons.
I have some crazy theory of my own, but it's way too insane to present at this moment

Also, this topic gets me passionate and I end up ranting a lot...so I'll stop now.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2007, 01:27 AM

Ok Manolo, puulleeze not the one about the aliens!!!

Just kidding!
All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 6th February 2007, 01:30 AM

Nah!!! I'm all about Atlantis Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2007, 01:53 AM

Right on Emanuel!
Really though, there is a lot of speculation on the development of the flyssa, and the link to the Ottoman yataghan seems most plausible to me at this point. However, we can only speculate as I do not know of any proto-flyssa examples that might demonstrate local development outside that influence.
I dont think any idea or theory is too outrageous if it can be supported in at least some degree.
As always, lots more research to be done.
All the best,
Jim

FenrisWolf · 6th February 2007, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ok Manolo, puulleeze not the one about the aliens!!!

Just kidding!
All the best,
Jim

I favor elves, myself. Note the similarity to the fighting knives Legolas carries in the LOTR movies.

PBishop · 6th February 2007, 04:27 PM

Elves? Atlantis? Aliens? You guys have no imagination!...

I put the "real" story here at my homepage -
http://groups.msn.com/TheMadScientis...4&all_topics=0

5th February 2007, 12:42 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	A very interesting idea, the origins of the Flyssa seems unclear (as you probably know) .It will be interesting to see what others think .... I am sure Manolo (Emanuel) and Jim will add comments

5th February 2007, 01:26 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	That's an interesting idea. Check out the "Big Flyssa Thread" in the "Classics" Sticky. Welcome to the forum.

5th February 2007, 03:28 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thats an excellent observation!!! and exactly the kind of thinking that often presents great clues in the study of weapons development. Very impressive, and actually I had never noticed that particular similarity. It is well known that many ethnographic weapons bear striking similarity to ancient weapons found typically in iconographic sources. Atavistic forms have often been believed to have been the influence in many later developed weapons in various cultures. Clearly the Greek kopis, the machaira and the Egyptian khopesh are prime examples. The flyssa is a relative newcomer among many of the swords of North Africa, and its origins are somewhat obscure and obviously widely debated. I am inclined to believe that it likely is derived from early forms of yataghan with somewhat the same deep bellied blade form, as seen in the c.1510 example shown in "The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent" (1990, p.64, #50). There is clearly a considerable gap in time from the period of this weapon to the first known appearance of the flyssa c.1827, but again the expanses of time between the kopis' and machaira that likely were the inspiration for the Ottoman weapon are obviously as broad, and demonstrate the atavistic perspective descibed. In using the search feature here, it will be seen that there have been many discussions on the flyssa, especially on how it may have been used in combat. Its use in combat seems supported as I have discovered one among the holdings of a Foreign Legion museum in France which was taken in battle in 1857. Much as the Black Sea 'cousin' of these interesting swords, the flyssa left the working weapon group in a short period, probably about the early part of the 20th c. Best regards, Jim

5th February 2007, 04:35 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello! That's a very interesting theory, with the big problem being how the transition took place between the bronze age sword and the flyssa. How des one get from a double-edged blade to a single edged? Maybe the similarity is purely aesthetic, and maybe there is domething to it. The same problem applies to the yataghan/flyssa relationship, where, as Jim noted, there is a bit of a gap in documentation. As Andrew suggested check out the Big Flyssa Thread, it contains all the discussions ( I think) about these fantastic weapons. I have some crazy theory of my own, but it's way too insane to present at this moment Also, this topic gets me passionate and I end up ranting a lot...so I'll stop now. Emanuel

6th February 2007, 01:27 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ok Manolo, puulleeze not the one about the aliens!!! Just kidding! All the best, Jim

6th February 2007, 01:30 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nah!!! I'm all about Atlantis Jim

6th February 2007, 01:53 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Right on Emanuel! Really though, there is a lot of speculation on the development of the flyssa, and the link to the Ottoman yataghan seems most plausible to me at this point. However, we can only speculate as I do not know of any proto-flyssa examples that might demonstrate local development outside that influence. I dont think any idea or theory is too outrageous if it can be supported in at least some degree. As always, lots more research to be done. All the best, Jim

6th February 2007, 04:27 PM	#9
PBishop Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 11	Elves? Atlantis? Aliens? You guys have no imagination!... I put the "real" story here at my homepage - http://groups.msn.com/TheMadScientis...4&all_topics=0