Chinese Jian sword

BluErf · 3rd February 2007, 03:43 PM

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the info on the 7-stars. The 5 stars in the middle are nearly equi-distance while the one near the tip is very short, and the one nearest the guard is a wee bit shorter.

This is the first time that I've seen a pommel ring as well, but after removing the hilt (with great difficulty, as it is fixed through 2 holes in the tang, and I don't think the pegs can take another removal/reinsertion without breaking), I see that the ring is a continuation of the tang, with one end bent backwards and forged shut with the tang proper.

I understand that there is the 文剑 ("Wen Jian", or Scholar's sword) and the 武剑 ("Wu Jian", or fighter's/military sword) differentiation between Chinese swords. The latter being the side arms of military officers and more robustly built.

If a reference from a China-made movie is anything to go by (and I know movies can sometimes be terribly inaccurate), there is this film entitled "Heroes of Heaven & Earth" set in the Tang Dynasty. The protagonist was an officer in the Tang army based in the deserts on the Western frontier of the Tang empire. He refused an order from a superior officer to execute some Turkish or Uyghur female/children prisoners and the superior officer drew his sword to mete out punishment on the protagonist. Our hero drew his sword at about the same time, but because his was a short sword, he drew it faster and won the fight. He explained the phrase “短一寸，快三分” ("duan yi cun, kuai san fen" - shorter by an inch, faster by 3 short units of time) to his subordinates who fled with him after killing his superior. So if Chinese military officers could have used jian as side-arms, it could have been a short one, which could have been used more effectively in close quarter combat, much like the Roman gladius.

The other reason why I suspected the jian could have been a 'war sword' was because it was hefty, but not to the point of being unwieldy. The sword looks like it could take a lot of punishment with it's thick diamond cross section. A scholar's sword would presumably be lighter, thinner, more suited to a person who is not so strong (assuming Chinese scholars don't work out so much

).

You are right about the dao being the favourite Chinese weapon of all time, used by soldiers and brigands alike to chop up everybody.

The sword was purchased polished, by the seller himself; it's from Alex. I dare not let him know what has happened to the sword...

Meanwhile, I'll just keep polishing the sword daily until the last of the polishing marks are gone (I hope)...

BluErf · 3rd February 2007, 04:03 PM

Oh yes, and the iron guard - it cannot be removed with the pommel ring in the way, so it must have been an integral part of this jian for a long while. It is a very robust guard, and free of ornamentation. Very likely to be manufactured with the sole purpose of protecting the wielder's hand from serious attacks.

John · 3rd February 2007, 04:59 PM

Ah, I remember this beautiful Jian Bill which looks as right as rain. Have kept those pictures. If I remember correctly, it's indeed from the same seller Kai Wee got his.

And Kai Wee, nice "duan" (short) Jian although I've not seen a scabbard as yours. I like the "fa guang" (shinny) look of blade and seems you're as good in removing rust in Jian as for keris. Also being a fan of "Wu Xia" movies, I've seen the movie you quoted. "...kuai san fen" eh?

Joe · 3rd February 2007, 09:56 PM

Unusual pieces flying about!

I've been looking at Chinese swords for years, and this is the first time I've seen a jian with a ring hilt. And with the guard, it becomes very mysterious, as these are two identical features on early 20th century dadao. Compare with the pic below.

As for a "war jians", they were usually very Spartan in their decorations. Here's a pic of one that was offered by an antique military arms dealer a couple years ago.

BluErf · 4th February 2007, 01:26 AM

Yep, pommel rings have always been associated with dadao, and I have never seen a second example of a jian with a pommel ring. A real puzzler, isn't it?

Another unusual point is that the guard, while bearing some similarities to the dadao's guard, it's made of iron, not brass, like nearly every other jian and dao I've seen.

The sheath and hilt of the jian is late 20th century - absolutely new. So I guess the maker of the sheath and hilt took a fair bit of artistic license in creating them. I think the only old parts were the blade and the iron guard. The rest must have perished. Judging from the iron guard which is bereft of any decorations, the lost old fittings could have been very spartan as well.

Apologies to Bill for hijacking the thread.

BluErf · 4th February 2007, 01:47 AM

Hi Bill,

By the way, what was the name given to your sword? Was it "Flowing Sand"?

Bill M · 4th February 2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Bill,

By the way, what was the name given to your sword? Was it "Flowing Sand"?

He called it --- no kidding --- "Crouching Tiger" or "Hidden Dragon" or "Tiger Hiding Behind the Crouching dragon" --- something like that. There was a movie that came out about when I got it.

He had some funny names. I always liked the idea of naming swords.

I had a good relationship with Alex, but bought one of his modern pieces on eBay and was not happy with it. I felt his quality was slipping. Returns sparked problems with his sister here in the USA.

This spawned me giving her a negative FB. One of the very few I have given. I felt it was necessary.

Lost touch with Alex.

He seemed to have a good heart for the Chinese sword.

3rd February 2007, 09:56 PM	#4
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Unusual pieces flying about! I've been looking at Chinese swords for years, and this is the first time I've seen a jian with a ring hilt. And with the guard, it becomes very mysterious, as these are two identical features on early 20th century dadao. Compare with the pic below. As for a "war jians", they were usually very Spartan in their decorations. Here's a pic of one that was offered by an antique military arms dealer a couple years ago. Attached Images

3rd February 2007, 03:43 PM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Bill, Thanks for the info on the 7-stars. The 5 stars in the middle are nearly equi-distance while the one near the tip is very short, and the one nearest the guard is a wee bit shorter. This is the first time that I've seen a pommel ring as well, but after removing the hilt (with great difficulty, as it is fixed through 2 holes in the tang, and I don't think the pegs can take another removal/reinsertion without breaking), I see that the ring is a continuation of the tang, with one end bent backwards and forged shut with the tang proper. I understand that there is the 文剑 ("Wen Jian", or Scholar's sword) and the 武剑 ("Wu Jian", or fighter's/military sword) differentiation between Chinese swords. The latter being the side arms of military officers and more robustly built. If a reference from a China-made movie is anything to go by (and I know movies can sometimes be terribly inaccurate), there is this film entitled "Heroes of Heaven & Earth" set in the Tang Dynasty. The protagonist was an officer in the Tang army based in the deserts on the Western frontier of the Tang empire. He refused an order from a superior officer to execute some Turkish or Uyghur female/children prisoners and the superior officer drew his sword to mete out punishment on the protagonist. Our hero drew his sword at about the same time, but because his was a short sword, he drew it faster and won the fight. He explained the phrase “短一寸，快三分” ("duan yi cun, kuai san fen" - shorter by an inch, faster by 3 short units of time) to his subordinates who fled with him after killing his superior. So if Chinese military officers could have used jian as side-arms, it could have been a short one, which could have been used more effectively in close quarter combat, much like the Roman gladius. The other reason why I suspected the jian could have been a 'war sword' was because it was hefty, but not to the point of being unwieldy. The sword looks like it could take a lot of punishment with it's thick diamond cross section. A scholar's sword would presumably be lighter, thinner, more suited to a person who is not so strong (assuming Chinese scholars don't work out so much ). You are right about the dao being the favourite Chinese weapon of all time, used by soldiers and brigands alike to chop up everybody. The sword was purchased polished, by the seller himself; it's from Alex. I dare not let him know what has happened to the sword... Meanwhile, I'll just keep polishing the sword daily until the last of the polishing marks are gone (I hope)...

3rd February 2007, 04:03 PM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh yes, and the iron guard - it cannot be removed with the pommel ring in the way, so it must have been an integral part of this jian for a long while. It is a very robust guard, and free of ornamentation. Very likely to be manufactured with the sole purpose of protecting the wielder's hand from serious attacks.

3rd February 2007, 04:59 PM	#3
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Ah, I remember this beautiful Jian Bill which looks as right as rain. Have kept those pictures. If I remember correctly, it's indeed from the same seller Kai Wee got his. And Kai Wee, nice "duan" (short) Jian although I've not seen a scabbard as yours. I like the "fa guang" (shinny) look of blade and seems you're as good in removing rust in Jian as for keris. Also being a fan of "Wu Xia" movies, I've seen the movie you quoted. "...kuai san fen" eh?

4th February 2007, 01:26 AM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yep, pommel rings have always been associated with dadao, and I have never seen a second example of a jian with a pommel ring. A real puzzler, isn't it? Another unusual point is that the guard, while bearing some similarities to the dadao's guard, it's made of iron, not brass, like nearly every other jian and dao I've seen. The sheath and hilt of the jian is late 20th century - absolutely new. So I guess the maker of the sheath and hilt took a fair bit of artistic license in creating them. I think the only old parts were the blade and the iron guard. The rest must have perished. Judging from the iron guard which is bereft of any decorations, the lost old fittings could have been very spartan as well. Apologies to Bill for hijacking the thread.

4th February 2007, 01:47 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Bill, By the way, what was the name given to your sword? Was it "Flowing Sand"?