clunker saif?

FenrisWolf · 31st January 2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Thank you Sir, for the reply.
After posting the pictures, I did see a similar example in an old 1978 Arms and armour review.
Felt somewhat embarrased not knowing the correct name!
I have the odd question;
1,
Can you tell me what the projections perpendicular to the blade are for?
2,
Is it possible to give an approximate age to this sword?
3,
Does anyone know of a source of information about Nimchas?
(I don't like to be ignorant!!)
4,
Would it be possible for someone to PM me with a Very approximat value?

( Purchasing it at auction, in a lot with cleaning rods and a walking stick has me wondering if I robbed myself or not!)
Thank you for your time,
Richard.

I will tell you what little I know, and hopefully Jim or one of the other board members who is more knowledgable (and has access to references I do not!) can fill in any blanks (and correct any mistakes!)

1. The projections are, I believe, an additional knuckleguard. I have seen one of these where they arced across and formed a complete ring, but most are flat.

2. Most of these that I've seen date to the mid-1800s. There were a couple of weapons forms that seemed to evolve and disappear very quickly.

3. This is one where the people with reference books will have to help you out. What little I know I've gleaned here and there, but I don't have any good sources.

One thing you can do is go do Google Image Search and look up 'nimcha'. Click on any pictures that resemble your sword and if the page is still up you may find some information that way.

4. I'll PM you on this one.

Rick · 31st January 2007, 03:58 PM

5. Enter nimcha into this forum's search engine for previous threads on these swords .

Pukka Bundook · 1st February 2007, 04:20 AM

Thank you for the answers Fenris, and Rick.
Will delve into archives and see what I can unearth.

If anyone else has anything they can add, I would be most grateful.

I can think of lots of questions, but must discipline myself!.........and see if the answers are alredy here somewhere on this forum!!

Richard.

Rick · 1st February 2007, 04:04 PM

The only thing I can add is that in my very limited exposure to these swords and comparing this one to my example of this type of sayf/nimcha ; I have never seen those projecting lugs on the quillons before .

Pukka Bundook · 1st February 2007, 04:22 PM

Thanks for reply, Rick.
I think I saw some when doing a search, that had a half-circle set-up, but not just projections.
I found the pic of yours, V. interesting!
Very similar hilt, Very different blade!
Did you find any more information re. the blade?

On mine may I ask "now what?"

is it OK to re-align the horn in the centre of the handle,?.......it looks like the original horn used was hollow, (as to be expected) and had a piece inserted, that has moved somehow.
What about the cracked/chipped end of handle, should I fix or leave alone?

And the wire-brush marks? dull it down? ?

Clean blade at all?.........w.o. removing pits of course!!

I know this is not an expensive sword, but still don't want to do the wrong thing.
Thanks,
Richard.

Rick · 1st February 2007, 04:54 PM

Hi Richard, no I haven't found any more information than that it's an old backsword blade; possibly English and possibly as old as the turn of the 18th century . That was about all I could discover about it .. so far . No one has been able to identify the mark on the blade .

As for doing any work on yours; were I you I'd just live with it for a while .

RhysMichael · 1st February 2007, 06:26 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but I do not think is is incorrect to call this a saif. The term Saif is arabian for sword and usually used with curved blade swords.( A post from Artzi pointed out that this term may have come from Aramaic as it is also used in Hebrew for a straight rapier like sword ) While these Saif or Nimcha are usually attributed to Morroco they are also appearantly found in Zanzibar ( The Zanzibar saif that are a pretty much a type of 'nimcha' have the same basic grip but have a ring on theguard.). Of Interest I have seen one example of a sword with a Nimcha handle and a blade like a toukuba. In a thread with Jim about these he once wrote "It must be remembered that the commonly used term 'nimcha'* for the multi-quilloned Moroccan sabre is actually misapplied, and as in most cases in the Dar-al-Islam is locally considered a sa'if. These Moroccan swords with complex guards were known from at least the earlier 17th century in the Maghreb (which included the Moroccan littoral as far as Algeria)and the hilts are believed to have developed from early Italian sabres via Arab trade."

While we call these Nimcha Robert Elgood in his book "Arms & Armour of Arabia" noted that the literal Arabic term Nimcha ( Nimsha) denotes a 'short sword', which really does not fit these longer swords

A zanzibar sword
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...00351/ph-0.jpg

A morrocan sword
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...01835/ph-0.jpg

Please feel free to correct me if my impressions on this are wrong

1st February 2007, 04:20 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Nimcha. Thank you for the answers Fenris, and Rick. Will delve into archives and see what I can unearth. If anyone else has anything they can add, I would be most grateful. I can think of lots of questions, but must discipline myself!.........and see if the answers are alredy here somewhere on this forum!! Richard.

1st February 2007, 04:04 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	The only thing I can add is that in my very limited exposure to these swords and comparing this one to my example of this type of sayf/nimcha ; I have never seen those projecting lugs on the quillons before . Last edited by Rick; 1st February 2007 at 09:59 PM.

1st February 2007, 06:26 PM	#7
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Correct me if I am wrong but I do not think is is incorrect to call this a saif. The term Saif is arabian for sword and usually used with curved blade swords.( A post from Artzi pointed out that this term may have come from Aramaic as it is also used in Hebrew for a straight rapier like sword ) While these Saif or Nimcha are usually attributed to Morroco they are also appearantly found in Zanzibar ( The Zanzibar saif that are a pretty much a type of 'nimcha' have the same basic grip but have a ring on theguard.). Of Interest I have seen one example of a sword with a Nimcha handle and a blade like a toukuba. In a thread with Jim about these he once wrote "It must be remembered that the commonly used term 'nimcha'* for the multi-quilloned Moroccan sabre is actually misapplied, and as in most cases in the Dar-al-Islam is locally considered a sa'if. These Moroccan swords with complex guards were known from at least the earlier 17th century in the Maghreb (which included the Moroccan littoral as far as Algeria)and the hilts are believed to have developed from early Italian sabres via Arab trade." While we call these Nimcha Robert Elgood in his book "Arms & Armour of Arabia" noted that the literal Arabic term Nimcha ( Nimsha) denotes a 'short sword', which really does not fit these longer swords A zanzibar sword http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...00351/ph-0.jpg A morrocan sword http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...01835/ph-0.jpg Please feel free to correct me if my impressions on this are wrong Last edited by RhysMichael; 1st February 2007 at 06:36 PM.

31st January 2007, 03:58 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	5. Enter nimcha into this forum's search engine for previous threads on these swords .

1st February 2007, 04:22 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thanks for reply, Rick. I think I saw some when doing a search, that had a half-circle set-up, but not just projections. I found the pic of yours, V. interesting! Very similar hilt, Very different blade! Did you find any more information re. the blade? On mine may I ask "now what?" is it OK to re-align the horn in the centre of the handle,?.......it looks like the original horn used was hollow, (as to be expected) and had a piece inserted, that has moved somehow. What about the cracked/chipped end of handle, should I fix or leave alone? And the wire-brush marks? dull it down? ? Clean blade at all?.........w.o. removing pits of course!! I know this is not an expensive sword, but still don't want to do the wrong thing. Thanks, Richard.

1st February 2007, 04:54 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Hi Richard, no I haven't found any more information than that it's an old backsword blade; possibly English and possibly as old as the turn of the 18th century . That was about all I could discover about it .. so far . No one has been able to identify the mark on the blade . As for doing any work on yours; were I you I'd just live with it for a while .