Balinese kris from Polish Museum

nechesh · 20th February 2005, 09:34 AM

Wolviex, I wonder if you could provide us with a bit more information about this piece. Firstly, exactly where and when was it collected? Any chance the museum knows from whom it was obtained? Has the metal in the pendok and topengan ever been tested? Do we know for sure that it is solid gold is could it be plated? Have you ever had the pendok off the gander and looked inside? Have you found out any more about the stones in the eyes? Lastly, and this is directed at our keris group in general, is it possible that this hilt could not be Balinese at all, but the Madurese form of this particular style? It is shorter and fatter than the typical Bali form, which is exactly the way Madura style would be. It is also interesting to note that Madura is also known for the use of topengan on sheaths.

wolviex · 21st February 2005, 07:36 PM

Nechesh: I think I can't help much with my answers for this time.
1. TThis kris was collected just after the war, in 1946. Because of war, the history of this object is unknown

2. The metal never was tested. There is a chance it can be tested in special laboratory, but it's not so easy to get there. This is the only place like this in Krakow (maybe in Poland

), the queque is long, and testing expensive

3. I don't know if the gold was plated. I thought it is gilted brass, but tomorrow is a chance I'll show it to the expert who will be able to judge it better than me. Anyway, the head of the deity seems to be heavier and is much more thick then the rest of the metal on the sheath. Maybe it's pure gold or gilted silver or gilted copper - I don't know for sure

4. I didn't took the wrangka off beacuse it is glued so much, that I was worried not to destroy the wood. I know - you will probably say the wrangka was refited to the rest of the sheath. It is possible. As we can see on the pictures of others sheaths, many of them are made entire of pelet wood, while this one is made of simple wood with pelet wood wrangka. Am I going to far with presumptions?
5. The stones in the eyes are high quality, very well made and beautifully cut rock crystals - this is what "experts" say.
6. I don't know anything about Mandurese krises, so if you think this one is not Balinese, it would be good to discuss it with others forum mates, which I hope will be!

Best regards!!

Henk · 21st February 2005, 08:11 PM

Nechesh,

I'm glad that you mentioned the madura possibility. A few months ago I was in a famous auction house here in Holland. Offered for auction were two maduran keris with this kind of pendok with a bonaspatti mask covering the wrangka in this same way. Not gold but pure silver. Under the openworked pendok was a sleeve of silver to cover the gandar. In my opinion I agree with you that this golden pendok is placed on the backside of the scabbard and I think it had once a sleeve maybe from silver or gold under the pendok. Although the wrangka has balinese characteristics, I cann't get rid of the idea this piece is a madura keris. I think the ukiran is not original to this keris and should be replaced by a fine madura ukiran. For the eyes of the bonaspatti mask, I think they could be inten.

wolviex · 21st February 2005, 08:26 PM

Henk: if the ukiran isn't original was it matched because of wrangka, or do you think the wrangka isn't original too. Theye're similiar to each other, and even if they are of different tint, they look like "brother and sister" to me.

BTW, what do you mean "inten" - this word is stranger for every of my dictonaries

nechesh · 22nd February 2005, 02:29 AM

Wolviex, thanks for your response. I was really hoping you would know WHERE this keris was collected as well as when. As for testing for gold, i see no reason why you would need to go to a special lab to have this done. The test is common and easy and any competent jeweler should be able to handle it. As for the pendok being glued on, that's a surprise. Not a single keris in my collection is like this, i would imagine because the gandar needs to be changed from time to time as it takes far more abuse than the wrongko when the blade is taken in and out. This only leads me to further question whether this sheath was made for this pendok.
I am thinking less and less that this is a Bali keris at all. While the stylistic similarities between Bali and Lombok are well know, lesser recognized are cetain (though to a lesser extent) similarities in the Madurese style. As has been mentioned before, the topengan is also a form used in Madura. On pg. 49 of "The Kris" by van Duuren, there is a topengan example that he calls Bali OR Madura. he couldn't tell for sure. Also see Tammens, Vol. 2, pg 224, a keris noted as East Jawa. Madura is part of the province of East Jawa. In "Keris" by Hamzuri, pg 43 we see a wrongko and hilt noted as Madura. In "Royal Gifts From Indonesia", Wassing-Visser, pg 61, a keris noted as a Balinese type keris, but it was presented by Adiningrat VII of Madura to William I in 1835. It seems highly unlikely that a Madurese ruler would present a Bali keris to a dutch ruler. Jensen also shows a Madurese ladrang sheath with a similar topengan i fig. 94 of his book. I hope those with access to these reference books will check out these examples and comment.
We know that the Madurese made similar topengan. We know that they sometimes used a similar hilt form to Wolviex's example. We also know that this sheath was not made for this keris. The pendok is not fitted properly and since wolviex is worried about doing damage in removing it (i agree you should not chance that) we probably will never know if this pendok/topengan was even made for this sheath. I think the sheath itself might be the only thing that is Balinese. I believe the keris is most probably Madurese. Dave is right to note that some early Balinese keris can resemble Javanese, but this keris isn't THAT old. You just don't see gonjo iras keris before the 17thC (Except for keris sajen and keris buda) and by that time the Bali keris had taken on many of it's own stylistic features.
In regards to gonjo iras, both Dave and Tom mentioned their belief in this thread that there is some special mystical power to this form. Can either of you give any point of reference to these remarks? I must readily admit that my impressions that this was a way to cut costs is purely hearsay, though IMO, the information came from a very reliable source. I have checked all my own written resources and the internet, bit very little has been written on the subject. Don't get me wrong, as an owner of a nice early 19thC gonjo iras blade, i would love to find some evidence of mystical/magickal intention. But i also am not willing to make assumptions such as since there are less of them they must therefore have some special power. We will be spending years debunking the meteorite mythology, i'd hate to see new unproven legends of the gonjo iras start circulating. So, can either of you gentleman provide some sources for your information, or is it just something you heard somewhere?
As for gemstones, i don't think they are inten. If they are rock crystal, they are the clearest and most flawless cut quartz i've ever seen. And the color doesn't seem right. I suppose Zircon is a possibility. I noticed you put the word "expert" in quotations. Did a jeweler or gemologist have a look at these?

Battara · 22nd February 2005, 07:10 PM

A very good point, David. I always advocate for stones being take to a jeweler for identification (along with metals). Clears up a lot of problems with sacred meaning, value, etc.

wolviex · 22nd February 2005, 07:18 PM

Nechesh - thank you very much for your reply. Any help and any opinion is valuable for me, until any books about this weapons are out of my sight.

Here it is - THE PENDOK IS TAKEN OFF. And what do we see?
In my opinion the sheath is made of newest wood, so probably it is reconstructed. The warangka is damaged and probably this is the reason why someone took off the pendok and changed the sides - just to hide under the deity's head this bad looking crack. You won't probably see it on photos, but this crack is shining with glue leaking out from the other side. The warangka is glued to the rest of the sheath. I wouldn't be surpised if it was repaired crude European, but could European made such part of the sheath? - or do you think it's Indonesian work?

I was right - the pendok is made of gilted brass. The head is probably cast of brass. There you can also see the brownish stains on the other side of the head - which are probably the result of oxide.

About the stones - I must admit I'm confused - you're not the first person who doubt in "rock crystal theory". The expert was "quoted" not without the reason

- although she is still expert but not jeweler nor gemologist

. I'll look further.

On one of the photos you can see how badly is the head unriveted. There is a chance it will be repaired!

Best regards!

Henk · 22nd February 2005, 07:20 PM

Wolviex,

Now it will be guessing. It is very good possible that the wrangka wasn't original either. It is quite obvious that the wrangka was remade to fit this keris. The wrangka is made of kaju pellet wood and so is the ukiran but the structure of the wood of the wrangka is different than the structure of the wood of the ukiran. Probably the previous owner would have had the same thought like you have, a nice matching couple. It wouldn't surprise me if only the pendok and the keris itself are original and as you know the wooden parts of keris were frequently replaced. Just like Nechesh, I strongly vote for Madura.

Inten are diamonds used in mendaks, on pendoks and as the eyes of such masks. Don't get dollarsigns in your eyes by the remark diamonds because inten are very cheap and low carat mostly comming from Kalimantan.

wolviex · 22nd February 2005, 07:47 PM

Thank you Hank for explain the "inten" word!

The dollars didn't shine in my eyes

- I'm not the owner of this thing...

BTW. I'll post the picture of kris with pendok on the proper side when it will come back to me from conservator workshop.

Regards!

Henk · 22nd February 2005, 09:51 PM

I can hardly wait

22nd February 2005, 07:18 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	The Pedok is taken off Nechesh - thank you very much for your reply. Any help and any opinion is valuable for me, until any books about this weapons are out of my sight. Here it is - THE PENDOK IS TAKEN OFF. And what do we see? In my opinion the sheath is made of newest wood, so probably it is reconstructed. The warangka is damaged and probably this is the reason why someone took off the pendok and changed the sides - just to hide under the deity's head this bad looking crack. You won't probably see it on photos, but this crack is shining with glue leaking out from the other side. The warangka is glued to the rest of the sheath. I wouldn't be surpised if it was repaired crude European, but could European made such part of the sheath? - or do you think it's Indonesian work? I was right - the pendok is made of gilted brass. The head is probably cast of brass. There you can also see the brownish stains on the other side of the head - which are probably the result of oxide. About the stones - I must admit I'm confused - you're not the first person who doubt in "rock crystal theory". The expert was "quoted" not without the reason - although she is still expert but not jeweler nor gemologist . I'll look further. On one of the photos you can see how badly is the head unriveted. There is a chance it will be repaired! Best regards! Attached Images

20th February 2005, 09:34 AM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wolviex, I wonder if you could provide us with a bit more information about this piece. Firstly, exactly where and when was it collected? Any chance the museum knows from whom it was obtained? Has the metal in the pendok and topengan ever been tested? Do we know for sure that it is solid gold is could it be plated? Have you ever had the pendok off the gander and looked inside? Have you found out any more about the stones in the eyes? Lastly, and this is directed at our keris group in general, is it possible that this hilt could not be Balinese at all, but the Madurese form of this particular style? It is shorter and fatter than the typical Bali form, which is exactly the way Madura style would be. It is also interesting to note that Madura is also known for the use of topengan on sheaths.

21st February 2005, 07:36 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Nechesh: I think I can't help much with my answers for this time. 1. TThis kris was collected just after the war, in 1946. Because of war, the history of this object is unknown 2. The metal never was tested. There is a chance it can be tested in special laboratory, but it's not so easy to get there. This is the only place like this in Krakow (maybe in Poland ), the queque is long, and testing expensive 3. I don't know if the gold was plated. I thought it is gilted brass, but tomorrow is a chance I'll show it to the expert who will be able to judge it better than me. Anyway, the head of the deity seems to be heavier and is much more thick then the rest of the metal on the sheath. Maybe it's pure gold or gilted silver or gilted copper - I don't know for sure 4. I didn't took the wrangka off beacuse it is glued so much, that I was worried not to destroy the wood. I know - you will probably say the wrangka was refited to the rest of the sheath. It is possible. As we can see on the pictures of others sheaths, many of them are made entire of pelet wood, while this one is made of simple wood with pelet wood wrangka. Am I going to far with presumptions? 5. The stones in the eyes are high quality, very well made and beautifully cut rock crystals - this is what "experts" say. 6. I don't know anything about Mandurese krises, so if you think this one is not Balinese, it would be good to discuss it with others forum mates, which I hope will be! Best regards!!

21st February 2005, 08:11 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Nechesh, I'm glad that you mentioned the madura possibility. A few months ago I was in a famous auction house here in Holland. Offered for auction were two maduran keris with this kind of pendok with a bonaspatti mask covering the wrangka in this same way. Not gold but pure silver. Under the openworked pendok was a sleeve of silver to cover the gandar. In my opinion I agree with you that this golden pendok is placed on the backside of the scabbard and I think it had once a sleeve maybe from silver or gold under the pendok. Although the wrangka has balinese characteristics, I cann't get rid of the idea this piece is a madura keris. I think the ukiran is not original to this keris and should be replaced by a fine madura ukiran. For the eyes of the bonaspatti mask, I think they could be inten.

21st February 2005, 08:26 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Henk: if the ukiran isn't original was it matched because of wrangka, or do you think the wrangka isn't original too. Theye're similiar to each other, and even if they are of different tint, they look like "brother and sister" to me. BTW, what do you mean "inten" - this word is stranger for every of my dictonaries

22nd February 2005, 02:29 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wolviex, thanks for your response. I was really hoping you would know WHERE this keris was collected as well as when. As for testing for gold, i see no reason why you would need to go to a special lab to have this done. The test is common and easy and any competent jeweler should be able to handle it. As for the pendok being glued on, that's a surprise. Not a single keris in my collection is like this, i would imagine because the gandar needs to be changed from time to time as it takes far more abuse than the wrongko when the blade is taken in and out. This only leads me to further question whether this sheath was made for this pendok. I am thinking less and less that this is a Bali keris at all. While the stylistic similarities between Bali and Lombok are well know, lesser recognized are cetain (though to a lesser extent) similarities in the Madurese style. As has been mentioned before, the topengan is also a form used in Madura. On pg. 49 of "The Kris" by van Duuren, there is a topengan example that he calls Bali OR Madura. he couldn't tell for sure. Also see Tammens, Vol. 2, pg 224, a keris noted as East Jawa. Madura is part of the province of East Jawa. In "Keris" by Hamzuri, pg 43 we see a wrongko and hilt noted as Madura. In "Royal Gifts From Indonesia", Wassing-Visser, pg 61, a keris noted as a Balinese type keris, but it was presented by Adiningrat VII of Madura to William I in 1835. It seems highly unlikely that a Madurese ruler would present a Bali keris to a dutch ruler. Jensen also shows a Madurese ladrang sheath with a similar topengan i fig. 94 of his book. I hope those with access to these reference books will check out these examples and comment. We know that the Madurese made similar topengan. We know that they sometimes used a similar hilt form to Wolviex's example. We also know that this sheath was not made for this keris. The pendok is not fitted properly and since wolviex is worried about doing damage in removing it (i agree you should not chance that) we probably will never know if this pendok/topengan was even made for this sheath. I think the sheath itself might be the only thing that is Balinese. I believe the keris is most probably Madurese. Dave is right to note that some early Balinese keris can resemble Javanese, but this keris isn't THAT old. You just don't see gonjo iras keris before the 17thC (Except for keris sajen and keris buda) and by that time the Bali keris had taken on many of it's own stylistic features. In regards to gonjo iras, both Dave and Tom mentioned their belief in this thread that there is some special mystical power to this form. Can either of you give any point of reference to these remarks? I must readily admit that my impressions that this was a way to cut costs is purely hearsay, though IMO, the information came from a very reliable source. I have checked all my own written resources and the internet, bit very little has been written on the subject. Don't get me wrong, as an owner of a nice early 19thC gonjo iras blade, i would love to find some evidence of mystical/magickal intention. But i also am not willing to make assumptions such as since there are less of them they must therefore have some special power. We will be spending years debunking the meteorite mythology, i'd hate to see new unproven legends of the gonjo iras start circulating. So, can either of you gentleman provide some sources for your information, or is it just something you heard somewhere? As for gemstones, i don't think they are inten. If they are rock crystal, they are the clearest and most flawless cut quartz i've ever seen. And the color doesn't seem right. I suppose Zircon is a possibility. I noticed you put the word "expert" in quotations. Did a jeweler or gemologist have a look at these?

22nd February 2005, 07:10 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,346	A very good point, David. I always advocate for stones being take to a jeweler for identification (along with metals). Clears up a lot of problems with sacred meaning, value, etc.

22nd February 2005, 07:20 PM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Wolviex, Now it will be guessing. It is very good possible that the wrangka wasn't original either. It is quite obvious that the wrangka was remade to fit this keris. The wrangka is made of kaju pellet wood and so is the ukiran but the structure of the wood of the wrangka is different than the structure of the wood of the ukiran. Probably the previous owner would have had the same thought like you have, a nice matching couple. It wouldn't surprise me if only the pendok and the keris itself are original and as you know the wooden parts of keris were frequently replaced. Just like Nechesh, I strongly vote for Madura. Inten are diamonds used in mendaks, on pendoks and as the eyes of such masks. Don't get dollarsigns in your eyes by the remark diamonds because inten are very cheap and low carat mostly comming from Kalimantan.

22nd February 2005, 07:47 PM	#9
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you Hank for explain the "inten" word! The dollars didn't shine in my eyes - I'm not the owner of this thing... BTW. I'll post the picture of kris with pendok on the proper side when it will come back to me from conservator workshop. Regards!

22nd February 2005, 09:51 PM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I can hardly wait