Blades and horseshoes??!!

Jens Nordlunde · 27th January 2007, 02:27 PM

Hi Greg,

It seems that I have seen that horseshoes and nails were used directly in crucibles, but I did not think of it, the reason must be that it was not horseshoes, but mule shoes

.

Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, pages 41-79. On page 61 a recipe is given where some of the things, which should be used, are mule shoes and nails. Other old recipes on how to make crucibles are also given.

Gt Obach · 27th January 2007, 07:21 PM

thanks Jens

that is a good reference.

seems like recycling of metal has deep roots !

Greg

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2007, 02:22 AM

Just located another interesting item concerning superstition and folklore as applied to weapons, in 19th c. Sweden and certainly considerable time prior;
"...in Swedish folklore rifles were associated with various popular and magical beliefs, mostly concerning the ability of the weapons to hit and kill its target. The rifle itself could be a magical item, For example the material a good rifle barrel should be made of, should contain nails from a cemetary, a piece of silver, bones from an executed man and coffin nails".

taken from Pers-Anders Ostling, "Rifles in Swedish Folklore:Magical Properties of Weapons", in Vol.#4 2003, p.26, "Varia: Journal of the Swedish Arms & Armour Society".

While obviously pertaining to firearms, I have simply included this item to illustrate superstitious concepts often applied to weapons, which extended of course in many cases even more so to edged weapons. The inclusion of various botanicals believed to possess key metaphysical properties into the processing of steel is well described by Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", and it there are likely many other instances that may be found in other cultures, certainly in the Indonesian cultural sphere.

While excellent suggestions have been presented in the discussion that describe the dynamics of metallurgy and the adding of forged metal from such sources as nails and horseshoes from practical standpoint, I feel that the folklore perspective may have a degree of plausibility as well. Although we view such topics with much more scientific perspective today, I think we must remember the environment in which such things were viewed in the period we are considering.

While the blacksmiths were probably using the materials we are discussing with sound reason and for reasons known only unto themselves, those who described these processes in many cases certainly embellished these descriptions imbued with thier own limited knowledge of the procedures as well as thier own superstitious beliefs.

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 28th January 2007, 03:14 AM

Hi Jim,

As always these threads have me intrigued. Now let me turn it around on you. Instead of horseshoes being used for their magical properties, how about the magical (superstitious) properties of horseshoes coming from their practical properties. A townsman observing a blacksmith hammering old beat up shoes into a magnificent weapon, would have to conclude there must be some old magics in them thar shoes.

Just for fun

Jeff

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2007, 04:45 AM

I enjoy 'em too Jeff!

and that is exactly what I had in mind, surely the simple perception of the blacksmith, already typically regarded as a somewhat sinister character, throwing old horseshoes into the mix and creating these deadly blades, probably might have meant there were some key powers in those shoes.

Finally find this reference (and the library is now in shambles

It would seem there are many superstitious allusions concerning horseshoes in folklore from ancient times that evolved into local folklore;
"...horseshoes are nailed with seven iron nails. Seven is probably the most important number in the world of superstition. The nails used by the blacksmith have magic as powerful as the horseshoe itself. Rings made from these nails are said to give the same protection against evil as the horsehoe. When you put a 'found' (important that you 'find' it) horseshoe on a barn as an amulet, you are following in the footsteps of the Greeks and Romans who believed firmly in the protective powers of the horseshoe".

from "Knock on Wood: n Encyclopedia of Talismans, Charms, Supersitions & Symbols", Carole Potter, N.Y.1983, p.104.

When you go into the folklore and myths around these weapons, and the interpretation of the talismanic and cabalistic markings on the blades of them, it becomes fascinating to see the parallels in these beliefs in the 'civilized' world to similar applications in the tribal worlds. Think for example of the distinctive geometric designs on the flyssa, intended for protection from the evil eye, for one.

Knowledge and study of such folklore is often key to clues in arms and armor research, and really does take the fascination, intrigue and yup! fun!!

to profound dimensions.

Thanks for always keepin' it that way Jeff!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 28th January 2007, 05:03 AM

While we are at it, The horse shoe pointing up is supposed to ward off the evil eye by representing the cresent shape of the moon. Empirically this is all baloney! Of course that hasn't stopped me from having a "found" shoe under the floor mat of my truck(s) for the last twenty some years.

Scientifically yours

Jeff

P.S. a modern shoe uses 8 nails.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2007, 05:15 PM

LOL!

Right on Jeff! you can never be too careful ! and since the modern shoes use 8 nails, they gotta be even luckier?!!!
So perhaps the horseshoe upright has something to do with the crescent moons that typically show up on the talismanic blades? Maybe we're onto something

All the best,
your fellow scientist

Jim

27th January 2007, 02:27 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Greg, It seems that I have seen that horseshoes and nails were used directly in crucibles, but I did not think of it, the reason must be that it was not horseshoes, but mule shoes. Persian Steel by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, pages 41-79. On page 61 a recipe is given where some of the things, which should be used, are mule shoes and nails. Other old recipes on how to make crucibles are also given.

27th January 2007, 07:21 PM	#2
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	thanks Jens that is a good reference. seems like recycling of metal has deep roots ! Greg

28th January 2007, 02:22 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Just located another interesting item concerning superstition and folklore as applied to weapons, in 19th c. Sweden and certainly considerable time prior; "...in Swedish folklore rifles were associated with various popular and magical beliefs, mostly concerning the ability of the weapons to hit and kill its target. The rifle itself could be a magical item, For example the material a good rifle barrel should be made of, should contain nails from a cemetary, a piece of silver, bones from an executed man and coffin nails". taken from Pers-Anders Ostling, "Rifles in Swedish Folklore:Magical Properties of Weapons", in Vol.#4 2003, p.26, "Varia: Journal of the Swedish Arms & Armour Society". While obviously pertaining to firearms, I have simply included this item to illustrate superstitious concepts often applied to weapons, which extended of course in many cases even more so to edged weapons. The inclusion of various botanicals believed to possess key metaphysical properties into the processing of steel is well described by Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", and it there are likely many other instances that may be found in other cultures, certainly in the Indonesian cultural sphere. While excellent suggestions have been presented in the discussion that describe the dynamics of metallurgy and the adding of forged metal from such sources as nails and horseshoes from practical standpoint, I feel that the folklore perspective may have a degree of plausibility as well. Although we view such topics with much more scientific perspective today, I think we must remember the environment in which such things were viewed in the period we are considering. While the blacksmiths were probably using the materials we are discussing with sound reason and for reasons known only unto themselves, those who described these processes in many cases certainly embellished these descriptions imbued with thier own limited knowledge of the procedures as well as thier own superstitious beliefs. Best regards, Jim

28th January 2007, 03:14 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, As always these threads have me intrigued. Now let me turn it around on you. Instead of horseshoes being used for their magical properties, how about the magical (superstitious) properties of horseshoes coming from their practical properties. A townsman observing a blacksmith hammering old beat up shoes into a magnificent weapon, would have to conclude there must be some old magics in them thar shoes. Just for fun Jeff

28th January 2007, 04:45 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I enjoy 'em too Jeff! and that is exactly what I had in mind, surely the simple perception of the blacksmith, already typically regarded as a somewhat sinister character, throwing old horseshoes into the mix and creating these deadly blades, probably might have meant there were some key powers in those shoes. Finally find this reference (and the library is now in shambles It would seem there are many superstitious allusions concerning horseshoes in folklore from ancient times that evolved into local folklore; "...horseshoes are nailed with seven iron nails. Seven is probably the most important number in the world of superstition. The nails used by the blacksmith have magic as powerful as the horseshoe itself. Rings made from these nails are said to give the same protection against evil as the horsehoe. When you put a 'found' (important that you 'find' it) horseshoe on a barn as an amulet, you are following in the footsteps of the Greeks and Romans who believed firmly in the protective powers of the horseshoe". from "Knock on Wood: n Encyclopedia of Talismans, Charms, Supersitions & Symbols", Carole Potter, N.Y.1983, p.104. When you go into the folklore and myths around these weapons, and the interpretation of the talismanic and cabalistic markings on the blades of them, it becomes fascinating to see the parallels in these beliefs in the 'civilized' world to similar applications in the tribal worlds. Think for example of the distinctive geometric designs on the flyssa, intended for protection from the evil eye, for one. Knowledge and study of such folklore is often key to clues in arms and armor research, and really does take the fascination, intrigue and yup! fun!! to profound dimensions. Thanks for always keepin' it that way Jeff!!!! All the best, Jim

28th January 2007, 05:03 AM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	While we are at it, The horse shoe pointing up is supposed to ward off the evil eye by representing the cresent shape of the moon. Empirically this is all baloney! Of course that hasn't stopped me from having a "found" shoe under the floor mat of my truck(s) for the last twenty some years. Scientifically yours Jeff P.S. a modern shoe uses 8 nails.

28th January 2007, 05:15 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	LOL! Right on Jeff! you can never be too careful ! and since the modern shoes use 8 nails, they gotta be even luckier?!!! So perhaps the horseshoe upright has something to do with the crescent moons that typically show up on the talismanic blades? Maybe we're onto something All the best, your fellow scientist Jim