The Knife, Sacrifice and Meaning

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Manolo

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

It is fascinating how rituals evolve and are perpetuated.

A woman I know lived in an apartment complex. One cold morning she got in her car and when she started the engine she heard a short-lived scream from under the hood ("bonnet" for you Brits).

She opened the hood and saw the remains of a cat. Apparently the animal. seeking warmth had gotten into the engine the previous night after she arrived home, fell asleep and was caught in the fan blades when she started the engine the next morning.

She was very afraid this would happen again, so every morning thereafter, before she started the engine, she would thump the hood with her hands a few times to be sure another cat had not fallen asleep on her engine.

Chlidren nearby saw this and asked her why she was doing this. Not wanting to tell them about the cat's horrible death, she told them that she was just "Waking up the car's engine."

Soon after, she noticed that children all over her apartment complex were thumping their families' car hoods to "wake up the engine" before the family left on an outing.

Thus a new ritual began.

[VANDOO]

WHEN FLINT BLADES BECAME DULL THEY WERE RE-KNAPPED TO SHARPEN THE EDGES SO EACH TIME THIS WAS DONE THE BLADE GOT SMALLER AND SOMETIMES CHANGED SHAPE A BIT. SO I GUESS THAT BLADES ON SACRIFICAL KNIVES WERE REPLACED AND THE FANCY HANDLE MAY HAVE BEEN REUSED OR PERHAPS REPLACED BY AN ENTIRELY NEW KNIFE
I SUSPECT THE BLADE WAS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS THE HANDLE AS IT WAS MERELY THE SHARP PART OF THE TOOL AND ALL THE SYMBOLISM AND SPIRITUAL POWER WAS IN THE DECORATED HANDLE AND THE PRIEST. I HAVE NEVER READ OF THE DISCOVERY BY ARCHEOLOGISTS OF LOTS OF DISCARDED SACRIFICAL KNIVES SO THAT MAKES ME THINK THE HANDLES WERE REUSED OR PERHAPS THE ENTIRE KNIFE WAS DESTROYED

THERE WERE ALSO SOME VERY FANCY CEREMONIAL ECCENTRIC FLINTS THAT WERE REAL WORKS OF ART AND NEVER RESHARPENED SO THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER SEEN ACTUAL USE. THERE ARE 9 SUPERB EXAMPLES IN ONE OF THE OLD NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINES I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO THRU MY REFRENCES TO FIND IT BUT IT DOES HAVE A CEREMONIAL KNIFE ON THE FRONT COVER. PERHAPS I CAN LOOK LATER .

IT WOULD SEEM THE HUMAN RACE DOES TRY TO HANG ON THEIR OLD TRADITIONS,BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS. PERHAPS THAT EXPLAINS WHY MANY OF US SEEM TO REVERT TO BABOONS FROM TIME TO TIME ESPECIALLY WHEN DRIVING A CAR

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IT WOULD SEEM THE HUMAN RACE DOES TRY TO HANG ON THEIR OLD TRADITIONS,BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS. PERHAPS THAT EXPLAINS WHY MANY OF US SEEM TO REVERT TO BABOONS FROM TIME TO TIME ESPECIALLY WHEN DRIVING A CAR

ROTFLMAO!

[Tim Simmons]

This fist pic being an old picture from turn of the 19/20 century India. Is that a special knife? or just an agricultural tool? could an agricultural tool be significant? Compere with the second pic from Africa.


In this cropped picture, to concentrate on the knife. Sacred objects are being rejuvenated. The knife appears to very ordinary. The differences between an ornate and designated knife might be related to the degree of specialist personnel in the belief system and the gravity of the local.

[Emanuel]

Hello Tim,
The Indian knife looks like a Mopla knife, but it could be agricultural. I guess the beaheading is beast done by concave edges - as demonstrated by khukri and kora in Nepal - so the mopla was chosen to behead the goat simply for its effectiveness...maybe.
I'm thinking that the degree of spirituality or specialty attributeds to the knife varies depending on the context: a relatively poor society or group may use any available tool, while a richer one may use specifically designated (maybe blessed/sanctified?) blades.

Vandoo, could the handles themselves act as deities? I mean could they be used separate from the blade, simply as devotional sculptures/amulets? That leads me to ask "how different is a handle from a sacrificial knife from a statue, if at all?" For example, I have a little tourist statue from Mexico, carved in soapstone, that looks a lot like the knife posted by Tim.

Emanuel

[Tim Simmons]

They do things differently there. This is a rather staged photo from the late 19th century. A time when a section of British society was and still is deeply fascinated and romantic about the Islamic world. The picture is near east Syria? Look closely, is that a saber? I cannot see a guard? could this be a special blade for halal method? Even if a staged photo I see no reason that it was not done as shown. Bye and bye I live not even 10miles from the first mosque in the UK, in a town called Woking built in 1889. No black pudding for breakfast then.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Look closely, is that a saber? I cannot see a guard? could this be a special blade for halal method?

just a precision,
no specific knife, dagger, sword to slaught an animal according with Islamic rite,
and have the meat reputed "hallal"
just ; to cut the throat of the animal in life, and in the same time, to address to God a specific prayer

it's just requested that the "tool" must be with a blade very sharp and cutting,
and to avoid to show it to the animal

à +

Dom

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This fist pic being an old picture from turn of the 19/20 century India. Is that a special knife? or just an agricultural tool? could an agricultural tool be significant? Compere with the second pic from Africa.

Hi, Tim;

I found this picture very interesting , especially after I compared it to this item that showed up today:



The blade is significantly smaller, but what little of the hilt that can be seen looks similar. Also, the blade is sharpened on the inner edge only, making it perfect for a drawcut across the throat of a sacrifice. The engraving on either side of the blade resembles a stylized century plant, which I know some people viewed as a symbol of rebirth (I don't know if that belief was held in India or not.) The outer curve has a false edge for about two-thirds edge, but is not sharp.

Fenris

[Rick]

That looks like a Chilean Corvo .
Scroll down.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=corvo

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Rick

That looks like a Chilean Corvo .
Scroll down.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=corvo

Thanks! I've learned more about my collection in the last week or so than I learned in the last year!
Fenris