Help with Arabic/Farsi translations?

Zifir · 22nd January 2007, 11:43 AM

I agree with Jeff that the date is probably 1933 since I could not see any arabic date on the inscription. In the second picture at the bottom there is a
C. 88 (if I am correct, but I have no idea what it means or why the knifemaker chose to wrote it in half latin and half arabic) I will try to give a meaningful translation of the first inscription later but the knife was made in Erzincan (or Arzincan if you wish) a city in eastern Anatolia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzincan

Thus the second picture is

933
Erzincan
--------
Yadigar (souvenir)
C.88
the knifemaker's signature

FenrisWolf · 22nd January 2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

I agree with Jeff that the date is probably 1933 since I could not see any arabic date on the inscription. In the second picture at the bottom there is a
C. 88 (if I am correct, but I have no idea what it means or why the knifemaker chose to wrote it in half latin and half arabic) I will try to give a meaningful translation of the first inscription later but the knife was made in Erzincan (or Arzincan if you wish) a city in eastern Anatolia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzincan

Thus the second picture is

933
Erzincan
--------
Yadigar (souvenir)
C.88
the knifemaker's signature

Thanks for the translation! I've owned this dagger for several years and tried repeatedly to find someone who could give me an accurate translation of the inscription, to no avail. When I look at the workmanship it's hard to wrap my mind around calling it a 'souvenir', but then I'm used to selling 'gen-yew-wine Arizona soo-vee-neers' that were cranked out in China in the Walgreens where I work. Having a souvenir that's actually a work or art takes getting used to!

I get the feeling I'm going to be spending a lot of time on this board. I have always loved the look and feel of a well-forged blade; holding something that has served as both a work of art and the thin edge between life and death for someone generates a visceral response.

For me, also, the evolution of weaponry is the evolution of man's society in microcosm. Nothing drives technology forward faster than warfare, and nothing displays the cutting edge of that technology like the weapons man weilds in defense of that society. It's a belief that makes a lot of people in this PC world we live in uncomfortable, but perhaps I'll find a few likeminded individuals here.

Thanks again for your help, I'm looking forward to the other translation!

Fenris

PS -- if any of you saw something like this for sale at that upcoming show in Boston, what sort of price would you expect to see? I'mj ust curious how good a buy I made!

ShayanMirza · 23rd January 2007, 07:43 PM

On the first line I can pick out a few words, but not all...The word Osman means Ottoman in English, if I didn't misread it. At least one of the words is Persian.

The bottom line says "there is no hero except Ali, there is no sword except Zulfaqaar"

لا فتى إلا على لا سيف إلا ذو الفقار

The reference to Ali and Zulfaqaar indicate Shi'a origin.

ShayanMirza · 23rd January 2007, 10:08 PM

Just a note: yaadgaar can mean souvenir, but it also can mean memorial or monument, so it probably wasn't made as a souvenir but as a commemoration.

FenrisWolf · 24th January 2007, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShayanMirza

Just a note: yaadgaar can mean souvenir, but it also can mean memorial or monument, so it probably wasn't made as a souvenir but as a commemoration.

Does anyone know enough Turkish history to suggest why 1933 would have been a significant date for a memorial blade? I did a search on Wikipedia, and other than it being towards the end of a period of extensive cultural and political reform, the only significant event I found was a state visit by the king of Yugoslavia.

ShayanMirza · 24th January 2007, 01:27 AM

Personally, it looks more like 935 to me, but even then the blade may be commemorating a significant event in Erzincan that wouldn't necessarily be a national event.

Zifir · 24th January 2007, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShayanMirza

On the first line I can pick out a few words, but not all...The word Osman means Ottoman in English, if I didn't misread it. At least one of the words is Persian.

The bottom line says "there is no hero except Ali, there is no sword except Zulfaqaar"

لا فتى إلا على لا سيف إلا ذو الفقار

The reference to Ali and Zulfaqaar indicate Shi'a origin.

The first line can be read as:

Her belayı def' eyleye evvel Osman Perverdigar

Which can be translated as:

May God fırst protect you from all calamities, Osman (probably the name of the owner)

This is my best shot, since there are some points which need to be explained or I am not very sure about. Without the phrase "evvel Osman" this a very well known formula (or prayer) for Alevis. But as far as I know Alevis never use the name "Osman" since they don't accept the Caliphate of Osman. However I can't claim to have a deep knowledge about different groups among Alevis. Maybe it is totally legitimate for some of them to use this name.

I don't have any objections to the translation of the second line.

ShayanMirza · 24th January 2007, 05:11 PM

Thanks for the correction, Zifir! I was having a load of trouble with the first line since I only recognised two words and the name Osman. I don't know Turkish, but I'd really like to learn since it's a fun and very useful language from Anatolia to Central Asia. Unfortunately it isn't offered at my school

23rd January 2007, 07:43 PM	#3
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	On the first line I can pick out a few words, but not all...The word Osman means Ottoman in English, if I didn't misread it. At least one of the words is Persian. The bottom line says "there is no hero except Ali, there is no sword except Zulfaqaar" لا فتى إلا على لا سيف إلا ذو الفقار The reference to Ali and Zulfaqaar indicate Shi'a origin. Attached Images Last edited by ShayanMirza; 23rd January 2007 at 08:12 PM.

22nd January 2007, 11:43 AM	#1
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I agree with Jeff that the date is probably 1933 since I could not see any arabic date on the inscription. In the second picture at the bottom there is a C. 88 (if I am correct, but I have no idea what it means or why the knifemaker chose to wrote it in half latin and half arabic) I will try to give a meaningful translation of the first inscription later but the knife was made in Erzincan (or Arzincan if you wish) a city in eastern Anatolia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzincan Thus the second picture is 933 Erzincan -------- Yadigar (souvenir) C.88 the knifemaker's signature

23rd January 2007, 10:08 PM	#4
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	Just a note: yaadgaar can mean souvenir, but it also can mean memorial or monument, so it probably wasn't made as a souvenir but as a commemoration.

24th January 2007, 01:27 AM	#6
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	Personally, it looks more like 935 to me, but even then the blade may be commemorating a significant event in Erzincan that wouldn't necessarily be a national event.

24th January 2007, 05:11 PM	#8
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	Thanks for the correction, Zifir! I was having a load of trouble with the first line since I only recognised two words and the name Osman. I don't know Turkish, but I'd really like to learn since it's a fun and very useful language from Anatolia to Central Asia. Unfortunately it isn't offered at my school