About the Dussäge

[Emanuel]

Hello Mark,
The dussäge at the museum was indeed also described as a "SInclair Sword" and a short synopsys was given about his ficticious incursion through Norway into Sweden.
Thanks for the pics, the second/bottom one is closest to what I saw, but still not the same. The one at the ROM was much more curved and the yelman was very well defined. The blade was somewhat narrower as well, and -not too sure- but it seemed a bit thin as well.
I will go again in June and take pictures to post.
Emanuel

[Joe]

Something like this?

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully written and outstanding information Marc!!!
Joe, fantastic example!
Now here lies the true origins of the Scottish basket hilt, and interestingly there are examples with curved blades, usually termed 'turcael' referring to the curved Turkish blades often seen by Highlander mercenaries in Eastern Europe. Naturally there remains considerable debate on the basket hilt origin issue, but the highly developed hilts on the guards of the so called 'Sinclair' sabres from Northern Europe seem the most plausible ancestor in my opinion.

From what I understand , the term dusagge (dusack) although originally applied to very pedestrian peasant swords, and training swords.As fencing with these developed, the term began to be applied to various heavy, short sabres and as noted cutlasses.

It would appear that terminology applied locally to certain weapons can often be expanded colloquially to a wider range of similar type weapons as the terms diffuse via trade, transliteration and travellers. Because of this it can often become maddening to try to categorize a particular weapon to a specific term as the same weapon may be referred to by very different terms in various places where found. I hope I said that right !

Best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Good one Joe!
It looks just like what I saw. Jim, the turcael would most certainly be kilij sabres no? If so this presents a clear path in my mind of the way in which Islamic and Persian curved sabres became the unidentified scimitar of western European literature and art. I always wanted to see actual examples being seen and eventually duplicated by Europeans...before Napoleon and Brits popularized Mamluk sabres, and eastern European Hussars and misc cavalry units introduced their own forms.

It's quite amazing to see this kilif form being adopted and further adapted to European uses and shapes.

Many thanks all of you!
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Emanuel,
The term 'turcael' was of course a Gaelic derived term as noted, thus used in description for 'curved blade' in Scotland, from what I understand. The term 'kilij' is primarily a general term for sabre as applied in Turkish regions.

The term 'scimitar' is a general term, as you note, used in literature to describe curved sabres, typically referring to Islamic forms, and does not specifically refer to an exact weapon. This term apparantly derived from a transliteration and is generally thought to have applied to the shamshir.

The sabres of the nomadic steppes tribes, the Turks, and of course Muslim forces in general, have certainly influenced the development of these forms in the west. During the crusades, various forms of falchion arose in France and England, and during the 15th-16th centuries the sabre developed in Eastern Europe from the sabres of the Turks. By the 18th century, sabres and flamboyant uniforms of cavalry in Western Europe derived from those of Eastern Europe.

It is interesting to see English sabres of late 18th and early 19th century that show influence of the fully parabolic curve of the shamshir and the use of the yelman at the point of the blade from Turkish kilij and the Polish/Hungarian sabres. Similar applications are seen in French and German sabres, and as you have noted, the influence of the Mamluk sabres from the Egyptian campaigns.

There has been a great deal written about the development of the sabre, which is a matter of considerable contention, but the views I have noted here as I understand seem to be generally accepted. I very much agree that it is fascinating to see the developing influences in these weapons, which reflect the development of history itself through the centuries and many cultures.

Your observations are right on target!!! and I like the way you think!
Careful or you'll get obsessed by this stuff like me

All the best,
Jim

[Joe]

Personally Jim, I've always viewed the origin for the raised back-ridge on Western single-edged swords as being a combination of independent specialization, and popularization of the Turkish (and surrounding regions') sword-making styles. Which may explain why the yelman was sharpened, but most dorsal ridges on Western European swords were not.

But then, who knows?

Anyway, here's a little food for thought: attached are a few images, showing the "Eastern concepts" on European swords.

The first is Polish 18th(?) century.
The second is German dated to 1550.
And the third is an English "scimitar" from the 19th century.

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly Joe, lots of speculation and generally accepted ideas, but without hard evidence these remain inconclusive, though quite plausible.
Sir Richard Burton, a pioneer in edged weapons research wrote in 1884 ("Book of the Sword", p.139 ), "...the old Persian sword, often called by mistake the Turkish sword, ends in a point beyond a broadening of the blade. The effect is to add force to the cut; the weapon becomes top heavy, but that is of little consequence when only a single slash, and no guarding is required of it. This peculiarity was curiously developed in the true Turkish scymitar, which we see in every picture of the sixteenth century...".

Naturally, we know that Burton's work has been tremendously superceded, and that he is describing the yelman, and that this feature was quite well known in Europe on various forms of falchion long before and during the 16th century and certainly concurrent in that period with Turkish forms.
While these falchions do not necessarily correspond to the blade profile with yelman, they do carry blades dramatically widened toward the tip, and usually radiused rather than the step type widening from the back edge.
In "European and American Arms" by Claude Blair (1962), the following falchions are shown....a German falchion of early 15th c. (#40) ; the parade sabre of Archduke Ferdinand of Tyrol c.1560 Italian ; Brescian falchion (#161) of mid 16th c. ; the Conyers falchion from Durham Cathedral c.1260-70 (#21).

The development of the sabre prior to these times seems the most disputed, though as noted, has been discussed and written on considerably.

Great photos!
What are the sources?

The first one has a blade that seems more 19th century, is it identified in the source as Polish? It seems a bit heavy for a Polish sabre.

The last English 'scimitar' I would agree is latter 19th c. and corresponds with decorative items produced in that period. While the huge blade somewhat reflects some of the early falchions, it seems to also parallel the huge 'dadao' blades of so called 'oxtail ' form that were widely seen in China during the "Boxer Rebellion" of 1900, though these swords had been in use long prior to this. The crossguard seems very much like those on kaskaras, and the grip and pommel recall certain medieval style. Is this from a collection?

All best regards,
Jim