Wehrmacht officers dagger

M ELEY · 14th January 2007, 02:04 AM

Point well taken, Barry, but what of colonial American swords, for instance. These types of swords are often one-of-a-kind, blacksmith-made, often from other sword parts and constitute a kind of folk art. They, like ethnographic pieces, are often misunderstood and there are very few sites that cover them. Likewise, colonial Spanish/Mexican pieces are, IMHO, fascinating and ethnographic. As I said earlier, a Model 1899 such and such doesn't belong here, but the occasional NON-TRIBAL weapon adds color and perspective occasionally.

VANDOO · 14th January 2007, 02:51 AM

YOU ARE CORRECT THAT WEAPONS MADE LOCALLY BY A PERSON OR BLACKSMITH CAN BE ONE OF A KIND AND VARY A LOT IN QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP AND DESIGN. THEY WOULD ALSO FALL UNDER ETHINOGRAPHIC I SUPPOSE AS I WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT OTHER CATAGORY TO PUT THEM IN EXCEPT CUSTOM KNIVES

THE ONLY ADVANTAGE THE COLLECTORS OF MORE MODERN MILITARY EDGED WEAPONS HAVE OVER US IS OFTEN THERE ARE TRAINING MANUALS GIVING INSTRUCTIONS ON THEIR PROPPER USE. WE ON THE OTHER HAND HAVE NO MANUALS AND MUST GO BY THE FEW OLD PERIOD ARTICLES WRITTEN ABOUT THEM. THE MOVEMENTS IN TRIBAL DANCES HAVING TO DO WITH WARRIORS OR OLD PICTURES OR SCULPTURE ON POTTERY OR WALLS ,ECT.
MARTIAL ARTS TRY TO FOLLOW THE OLD MOVES BUT AS NO TWO INDIVIDUALS DO IT EXACTLY THE SAME IT CHANGES A LITTLE OVER THE YEARS. THERE IS NO WAY TO BE SURE IF A MARTIAL ART HAS IMPROVED OVER THE ORIGINAL FORM OR HAS LOST KNOWLEGE AND TECKNIQUE AND MAY HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLENCE TO THE OLD FORM. IT MOSTLY HAS TO DO WITH THE MASTER TEACHING IT AND HIS ABILITYS AS A FIGHTER AND ESPECIALLY AS A TEACHER. IT IS MUCH EASIER TO TRAIN A GOOD FIGHTER THAN IT IS TO TRAIN A GOOD TEACHER AND INOVATORS ARE RARE EVEN AMONG GOOD TEACHERS.

FIGHTING TECKNIQUES WILL STILL REMAIN NEAR THE SAME EVEN IF YOU ARE STARTING WITH NO KNOWLEGE OF THE WEAPON. WE SIMPLY TRY ALL THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT OTHER WEAPONS AND TRY THEM AND SEE WHICH TECKNIQUES WORK BEST WITH THAT PARTICULAR WEAPON. IT DOES TAKE TIME AND A PERSON EXPERIENCED WITH WEAPONS AND NOT TOO SET IN HIS OLD TRAINING TO DO IT. FOR EXAMPLE A CHAMPION FENCER WOULD FIND FEW OF HIS TECKNIQUES WOULD WORK WELL WITH SOME WEAPONS AND WOULD HAVE TO BE FLEXABLE AND ADAPT TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW IT WOULD WORK BEST IN A FIGHT.

OH WELL! OFF TOPIC I GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER

CharlesS · 15th January 2007, 03:30 AM

I collected Imperial German and Nazi militaria for years before deciding to sell it and collect exclusively ethnographic blades. The fact that a Nazi sword has appeared here I find both confusing and disappointing, even somewhat offensive....a 100% machine made sword that shows no hint of the nature of the original craftsman's touch(except maybe his politics!!)

Note the subdivisions of our title page....takoubas, koumayas, keris, shamshir, dao, dhas, etc.....each at some level with a hint of a human touch that distinguishes it as unique, perhaps one of a kind, and certainly characteristic of a genre of weapons from a certain geographical region.

The Nazi sword identifies a machine made piece, from a 12 year era, never intended to actually be used, and other than its politcal persuasion, nothing about it is particularly unique from any other dress swords from the industrialized world of the same period.

Is this really what we want here? I do not argue with the collection of such pieces, afterall, I used to do it myself, but I do argue that this simply is NOT the venue for it any more than it is the correct venue for an M-16 bayonet.

Sure, it was just an "example" of another supposedly ethnographic piece, but surely I am not the only one that sees the irony of a Nazi sword on this forum....just a little piece of history from a political mentality that would have seen the populations and producers of the weapons most of us collect as 2nd or 3rd class citizens of the world, most marked as "sub-human", and many marked for eventual extermination. Sure the Nazis were not history's only "haters", but thay set a standard for it that has yet to be remotely equalled.

Is this really a door we want to open?

I would be more sympathetic if I thought there were no other venues for modern, even Nazi pieces, to be illustrated, explored and discussed, but there are, and I see nothing wrong with us having our own humble "corner" of the world wide web to explore something else.

fenlander · 15th January 2007, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I am not the only one that sees the irony of a Nazi sword on this forum....just a little piece of history from a political mentality that would have seen the populations and producers of the weapons most of us collect as 2nd or 3rd class citizens of the world, most marked as "sub-human", and many marked for eventual extermination. Sure the Nazis were not history's only "haters", but thay set a standard for it that has yet to be remotely equalled.

Is this really a door we want to open?

I would be more sympathetic if I thought there were no other venues for modern, even Nazi pieces, to be illustrated, explored and discussed, but there are, and I see nothing wrong with us having our own humble "corner" of the world wide web to explore something else.

I agree with your points that mass produced swords, perhaps should not be on this forum. But please can't you leave ethics out of it? There have been plenty of regimes as bad as the nazis. Ghenghis Khan wiped out and exterminated entire cities that did not surrender. The Japnanese did depraved things in Nanking on an unimaginable scale. Have you seen the news clips of the time ? Stalin did the same. Yes of course what the nazis did was disgusting and depraved but so where many other things from history. Should we ban everything from this forum based on, if that particlular regime or civilization was "evil"? If the weapon should not appear on here because it mass produced for example then yes that is a good point. But we certainly should not be banning weapons coming onto this forum because they came from a regime that was "evil". We are talking about swords and knives, these were mostly designed to do nasty things to other people. Lets keep this to swords and knives; not which weapons of which regimes and cultures are pollitically correct to discuss.
Next we will be banning discussion of satanic knives because Roman catholics find it offensive.

fernando · 16th January 2007, 12:39 AM

Hi CharlesS
I will refrain from rebating the full extent of your post, but i can not go without exercizing some response:
Let me be the one to be confused and ofended with your incisive considerations, once you assume having collected Imperial German and Nazi militaria for years. I have only the example i posted above, ethnographic or not, and i don't and never did fancy such culture. Therefore i fail to understand your sudden pertinency to produce lessons of moral.

14th January 2007, 02:04 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Point well taken, Barry, but what of colonial American swords, for instance. These types of swords are often one-of-a-kind, blacksmith-made, often from other sword parts and constitute a kind of folk art. They, like ethnographic pieces, are often misunderstood and there are very few sites that cover them. Likewise, colonial Spanish/Mexican pieces are, IMHO, fascinating and ethnographic. As I said earlier, a Model 1899 such and such doesn't belong here, but the occasional NON-TRIBAL weapon adds color and perspective occasionally.

14th January 2007, 02:51 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOU ARE CORRECT THAT WEAPONS MADE LOCALLY BY A PERSON OR BLACKSMITH CAN BE ONE OF A KIND AND VARY A LOT IN QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP AND DESIGN. THEY WOULD ALSO FALL UNDER ETHINOGRAPHIC I SUPPOSE AS I WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT OTHER CATAGORY TO PUT THEM IN EXCEPT CUSTOM KNIVES THE ONLY ADVANTAGE THE COLLECTORS OF MORE MODERN MILITARY EDGED WEAPONS HAVE OVER US IS OFTEN THERE ARE TRAINING MANUALS GIVING INSTRUCTIONS ON THEIR PROPPER USE. WE ON THE OTHER HAND HAVE NO MANUALS AND MUST GO BY THE FEW OLD PERIOD ARTICLES WRITTEN ABOUT THEM. THE MOVEMENTS IN TRIBAL DANCES HAVING TO DO WITH WARRIORS OR OLD PICTURES OR SCULPTURE ON POTTERY OR WALLS ,ECT. MARTIAL ARTS TRY TO FOLLOW THE OLD MOVES BUT AS NO TWO INDIVIDUALS DO IT EXACTLY THE SAME IT CHANGES A LITTLE OVER THE YEARS. THERE IS NO WAY TO BE SURE IF A MARTIAL ART HAS IMPROVED OVER THE ORIGINAL FORM OR HAS LOST KNOWLEGE AND TECKNIQUE AND MAY HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLENCE TO THE OLD FORM. IT MOSTLY HAS TO DO WITH THE MASTER TEACHING IT AND HIS ABILITYS AS A FIGHTER AND ESPECIALLY AS A TEACHER. IT IS MUCH EASIER TO TRAIN A GOOD FIGHTER THAN IT IS TO TRAIN A GOOD TEACHER AND INOVATORS ARE RARE EVEN AMONG GOOD TEACHERS. FIGHTING TECKNIQUES WILL STILL REMAIN NEAR THE SAME EVEN IF YOU ARE STARTING WITH NO KNOWLEGE OF THE WEAPON. WE SIMPLY TRY ALL THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT OTHER WEAPONS AND TRY THEM AND SEE WHICH TECKNIQUES WORK BEST WITH THAT PARTICULAR WEAPON. IT DOES TAKE TIME AND A PERSON EXPERIENCED WITH WEAPONS AND NOT TOO SET IN HIS OLD TRAINING TO DO IT. FOR EXAMPLE A CHAMPION FENCER WOULD FIND FEW OF HIS TECKNIQUES WOULD WORK WELL WITH SOME WEAPONS AND WOULD HAVE TO BE FLEXABLE AND ADAPT TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW IT WOULD WORK BEST IN A FIGHT. OH WELL! OFF TOPIC I GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER

15th January 2007, 03:30 AM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I collected Imperial German and Nazi militaria for years before deciding to sell it and collect exclusively ethnographic blades. The fact that a Nazi sword has appeared here I find both confusing and disappointing, even somewhat offensive....a 100% machine made sword that shows no hint of the nature of the original craftsman's touch(except maybe his politics!!) Note the subdivisions of our title page....takoubas, koumayas, keris, shamshir, dao, dhas, etc.....each at some level with a hint of a human touch that distinguishes it as unique, perhaps one of a kind, and certainly characteristic of a genre of weapons from a certain geographical region. The Nazi sword identifies a machine made piece, from a 12 year era, never intended to actually be used, and other than its politcal persuasion, nothing about it is particularly unique from any other dress swords from the industrialized world of the same period. Is this really what we want here? I do not argue with the collection of such pieces, afterall, I used to do it myself, but I do argue that this simply is NOT the venue for it any more than it is the correct venue for an M-16 bayonet. Sure, it was just an "example" of another supposedly ethnographic piece, but surely I am not the only one that sees the irony of a Nazi sword on this forum....just a little piece of history from a political mentality that would have seen the populations and producers of the weapons most of us collect as 2nd or 3rd class citizens of the world, most marked as "sub-human", and many marked for eventual extermination. Sure the Nazis were not history's only "haters", but thay set a standard for it that has yet to be remotely equalled. Is this really a door we want to open? I would be more sympathetic if I thought there were no other venues for modern, even Nazi pieces, to be illustrated, explored and discussed, but there are, and I see nothing wrong with us having our own humble "corner" of the world wide web to explore something else.

16th January 2007, 12:39 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi CharlesS I will refrain from rebating the full extent of your post, but i can not go without exercizing some response: Let me be the one to be confused and ofended with your incisive considerations, once you assume having collected Imperial German and Nazi militaria for years. I have only the example i posted above, ethnographic or not, and i don't and never did fancy such culture. Therefore i fail to understand your sudden pertinency to produce lessons of moral.