Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

katana · 12th January 2007, 06:14 PM

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.

On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again…

…..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War

This war caused political and social upheaval….

1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:

France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).

The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.

Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.

1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.

The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City

ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.

Bill M · 12th January 2007, 06:57 PM

Excellent post Katana! I am continually amazed by the depth of discussion here.

Glad that you are keeping it in the realm of ethnographic weapons, ie, the dagger(s).

Also that you examine in terms of historical and geographical context. Very important!

Good job!

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2007, 01:56 AM

Excellent Katana!!!!

Outstanding and fascinating information and very well presented. You are really adding some great dimension to material associated to these daggers and I am very much enjoying the historical data you are sharing.

Vandoo, some excellent perceptive ideas and observations, that really set us to thinking more on these daggers and the symbolism. I like your note on the possibility of such daggers with threaded screw on blades having alternative motif for varying occasions, interesting idea that recalls a number of edged weapon forms with interchangeable components.

It is interesting that secret societies, occultism and paganism, regarded as sinister and with suspicion , are parallelled in varying degree in the animism, folk religion and secret societies of ethnographic cultures that are regarded as significant in a generally more positive sense it seems in most cases. In that sense, it seems almost that these very esoteric weapons are in a fashion the ethnographica of our own culture .

The thread keeps getting better and better!!
I keep wanting more of this intriguing data and the interesting arcane weapons being posted. Thank you!

All best regards,
Jim

spiral · 13th January 2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.

On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again…

…..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War

This war caused political and social upheaval….

1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:

France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).

The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.

Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.

1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.

The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City

ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.

Thanks Katana!

Indeed theres is tons of information by Bernard Levine one of the worlds leading authoritys on these daggers as well as other American & European knives & daggers.

Sadley I am not allowed to share it though. {rules are rules.}

The comments on the BRL satanic dagger are valid from photo shown but if you search a little more you can find many closeups & breakdowns of the analisis of that dagger , many of which you cant see in that photo.

Spiral

David · 13th January 2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Indeed theres is tons of information by Bernard Levine one of the worlds leading authoritys on these daggers as well as other American & European knives & daggers.
Sadley I am not allowed to share it though. {rules are rules.}

Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

spiral · 13th January 2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

David · 13th January 2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

VANDOO · 13th January 2007, 05:50 PM

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.

spiral · 13th January 2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.

Thankyou Vandoo that is a great suggestion. Someting solid at last!

By any chance do you have the name of the museam?

Spiral

spiral · 13th January 2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

Certnley , I just pointed it out about the quashing to save anyone misunderstanding.

Of course I would like my Opinion verified!

But I would be happy to have verification of exactly what it is even if it is a suggested by some either 19th century Franklin Mint or indeed A notre Damn tourist dagger!

The TRUTH is what matters!

But this piece seems to have generated such intrest that I am rather shocked, but this thread has at least prooved the rarity of such pieces.

Sure I continue to point that out in the face of some of the comments & oppinions I have read throughout this thread.

The general discusian itself has been intresting, as well, & thankyou for your input & rest assured if I ever find Kriss your one of the expierienced peoples opinions I would first seek.

Spiral

12th January 2007, 06:14 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted….. i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000. On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ . Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it…… Historically, in 1871 …. The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories. More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again… …..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War This war caused political and social upheaval…. 1871-1918: At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland: France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874). The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built. Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration. 1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality 2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague. 3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance. The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion. 4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses. 5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive 6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule….. 7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’. Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ?? Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped……… We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power. There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration…… Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.) In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger. The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. Attached Images Last edited by katana; 12th January 2007 at 07:26 PM.

12th January 2007, 06:57 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Excellent post Katana! I am continually amazed by the depth of discussion here. Glad that you are keeping it in the realm of ethnographic weapons, ie, the dagger(s). Also that you examine in terms of historical and geographical context. Very important! Good job!

13th January 2007, 01:56 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Excellent Katana!!!! Outstanding and fascinating information and very well presented. You are really adding some great dimension to material associated to these daggers and I am very much enjoying the historical data you are sharing. Vandoo, some excellent perceptive ideas and observations, that really set us to thinking more on these daggers and the symbolism. I like your note on the possibility of such daggers with threaded screw on blades having alternative motif for varying occasions, interesting idea that recalls a number of edged weapon forms with interchangeable components. It is interesting that secret societies, occultism and paganism, regarded as sinister and with suspicion , are parallelled in varying degree in the animism, folk religion and secret societies of ethnographic cultures that are regarded as significant in a generally more positive sense it seems in most cases. In that sense, it seems almost that these very esoteric weapons are in a fashion the ethnographica of our own culture . The thread keeps getting better and better!! I keep wanting more of this intriguing data and the interesting arcane weapons being posted. Thank you! All best regards, Jim

13th January 2007, 05:50 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS. THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.