Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[spiral]

Great stuff chaps. A little more substance as we get further into the thread for sure!

I agree with Jim, Occult as a catch all term might be better than satanic.

We all seem to realise & agree this is a European figural knife. 19th century with an older blade.

The questian is whether the symbolism is occult or not.

The popular camp maintains & I agree one can potentialy align the Esmerelda, goat & tambourine to the image if one wishes. I certanly dont rule it out.

But it can also be percieved as A high priestess, goddess, whoever/whatever about to sacrifice the goat & catch the blood in the pan.


Sadley apart from the example Tim was good enough to share there has been littler of substance or fact about these cast Figural knives other than the photos Ive shared. So fan none with scabbards.

Here a further example of the French figural dagger i mentioned earlier that along with the preivios example clearly show the handle is held up right to percieve the scabbard.





& the previos example for your convience.



The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.




& Notre damn to compare.



As Ive shown 19 th century figural knives are looked at hilt up scabbard down this clearly shows that the church, with it crosses & the added alter sticks are clearly turned upside down. Which clearly is turning the church on its head, which is quite symbolic of anti christian occult, black masses etc.

[spiral]

Here are a few more photos to illustrate some of the features in more detail.












It has been suggested to me a theaded bolt into the blade is known German construction of c.1850 to c.1875 period, but I have sadley not got other examples to share.Anyone else?

The tile/shingle appearance on the steeple could certanly have Germanic origins although it also reminds me of Scandanavion work .

So all in all as enjoyable & wide ranging as the "occult" discusian is it would be nice to find some hard evidence to refute my points that i have further illustrated for you. Regarding 19th century cast figural knives whether the occult type or just the custom gift work of wealthy powerfull europeans like the one Ive illustrated from the Wallace collection.


Spiral

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by spiral

The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Yannis

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

Dont be sorry, its ok with me. If I couldnt cope with opinions of others i wouldnt have ever joined this forum. We all have them after all.

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

It would be like asknig for my opnion abouts aboriginal weapons or swords of the congo, I would have an opinion , but because the reality is I have no expierience in those areas my opinion would be worthless for factual identification.


It appears so far no one here has any expierience of cast figural european daggers of the 19th century here ? whether occult or otherwise. .

Or any one ever owned such an example? got a book with photos in even?

Anyone? Anything of any substance? whatsoever?


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

Excelent Tim, I am relieved you regard my piece as "franklin mint"

I try not to comment on the quality of items you usualy show.

Thanks for the figural knife, photo as poor as it is it helps proove my point! the scabbard is viewed handle upright!

One can see that from the man figured on the scabbard.

excelent.

many thanks for supporting my case.

Spiral

[katana]

If we stick with the idea this dagger is 'Esmeralda themed' I believe further symbolism can be infered.

Esmeralda, is a gypsy, considered a heathen and 'god less' by the Parisians.

Frollo, a principle character, is a priest at Notre Dame, whom because of his carnal desires for Esmeralda, which she ignores, ends up being instrumental in her demise. This member of the church is shown to be weak, an abuser of his position and acts in an 'un-christian' manner towards her.

When Esmeralda first escapes her captors she is taken to Notre Dame to seek 'sanctuary', (whilst in the grounds of the church, the 'law' cannot apprehend her). But later the 'sanctuary' is rescinded and she loses the protection of the church, and is re-captured.

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

[katana]

Found two images of 19th-century French Satanistic ritual dagger......I personally am not convinced about the description ie 'satanistic'.

Total length 13 1/4", hilt 3 1/3" long. The cast brass hilt depicts a winged entity. Tops of the wings form horns around its head. The triangular blade is most likely from a socket bayonet (widely used in the French army up to c.1850)

The third Image is a 19 century French hunting short sword, double edged...the fullers look very similar to your dagger, blade length 20 3/4". Dated to the “ Napoleonic era"

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

Found two images of 19th-century French Satanistic ritual dagger......I personally am not convinced about the description ie 'satanistic'.

Total length 13 1/4", hilt 3 1/3" long. The cast brass hilt depicts a winged entity. Tops of the wings form horns around its head. The triangular blade is most likely from a socket bayonet (widely used in the French army up to c.1850)

The third Image is a 19 century French hunting short sword, double edged...the fullers look very similar to your dagger, blade length 20 3/4". Dated to the “ Napoleonic era"

Thanks Katana,

The top one is one I illustrated earlier in the thread Katana. With links to the website its on.

Apparently thats nearer the usual quality of satanic dagger if you speak the people who collect such things.

The French short sword has 2 fullers, there the reasemblace ends. They are very diffent from the cross sectional profile of the occult daggers that I started this thread with.

I have lots of kukri with fullers that to many people,all look the same, but there are many differences if one studys them.

Spiral

[katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

Thanks Katana,

The top one is one I illustrated earlier in the thread Katana. With links to the website its on.

Spiral

Ooops

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.

As I said that my opinions have the same worth as others, that is the recognition of the truth. I can tell what is opinion & what isnt.Whether mine or others. Opinions are merly that, unless the come from a person familiar & expierinced with what is bieng discused. In this case a 19th century European cast Figural knife.

I was hoping that amongst the forumites there might be some one who could provide facts or evidence, about such as figural pieces in which the scabbard would be in the manner Jim first describded, before I questined him on it & offered further examples of Figural pieces, which so far all imply that the church is upside down. Just like the liberty torch on another exampale.

Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud.

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}

Deduction of opinion is still just opinion, intresting yes but unless it comes from someone with expierience it would be like getting a koto katana judged by an African weapons collector. Intresting but possibly wrong & would be tootaly worthless as an appraisel.Whearas if Rich Stein if he had an opinion about it , it would have a much greater weight as he is expierienced in the subject.

As I said in the Rhino thread I always appreciate people who have had lots of hans on expeirience & study there subject in depth. {As I am sure you do with krisses or whatever it is you are into.}


Spiral

Ps.

After the discusian of fullers Heres a couple of fellers with a kukri with a rather well done fuller.



It definatly a keeper, same as this figural knife.

Spiral

[katana]

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by katana

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

As I mentioned above the inverted cross can either be a satanic symbol or seen as St Peters Cross depending on context and interpretation. I do not know where the picture was taken but if it was somewhere like St Peters Basilica such a cross would make sense ( and I do not know if the church at the Mount of Beatitudes would have such an association to St Peter) . There is also a St Andrews cross which is like an X ( and this one has a very different interpretation, other than the catholic church one, also that is probably not a good subject for this forum) Both St Andrew and St Peter as the story goes requested to be crucified on a different cross than Christ because they did not feel worthy of dying in the exact same manner he did.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

The Catholic church does, have problems, The inverted cross you feature appears on many websites pointing that out.

Spiral

[spiral]

Turning a cross upside down is also a common feature of the black mass.

Turning a church upside down doesnt appear represent a belief in christianity.

Spiral

[David]

[QUOTE=spiral
Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud.

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}[/QUOTE]

Well it must be later indeed, since i haven't the foggiest notion what you are on about in this first paragrah.
I am afraid that presenting 2 or 3 examples with the figural scabbards viewed handle up is hardly evidence that ALL figural scabbards are intended to be viewed this way. The only fact is that the few examples you have provided point this way. I still think that the church is oriented this way on your scabbard because it is the logical direction given the shape of the object depicted. It just makes sense that the steeple point should be the point of the scabbard. That is, however, merely opinion.
Since you harp on the years of my study, in my 30 yrs. of occult study i have never seen an upside down church used as a symbol of satanism. Certainly crosses have been used that way, but has already been pointed out, the inverse cross is also the cross of St. Peter, so it is merely a matter of perspective. The same can be said of the pentagram The owl is generally looked upon as a positive symbol in most western magical circles. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. Sigils and magickal or arcane alphabets and talismanic signs are more often used to empower ritual items. I see no such signs on any of these daggers.
If you look hard enough one can find 'satanists" everywhere. The church certain did a good job at it for centuries.

[spiral]

[QUOTE=David]. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

The innocents ones cant see... {or dont want to?}


Spiral

Dont mind about the eggy landlord, he knows, thats what matters.

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by katana

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........

[David]

[QUOTE=spiralRather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down.

The innocents ones cant see... {or dont want to?}
[/QUOTE]

Actually no Spiral, more rather like this. This is, of course, a modern ritual dagger, but it is based on a 19thC design.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists".

[katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

Turning a church upside down doesnt appear represent a belief in christianity.

Spiral

Spiral did you not read the post immediately preceding my post with the 3 pics

Quote from thread

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

[Jim McDougall]

Great discourse guys! Lots of excellent observations, uh, and opinions!
As much as I have resisted, I must note here that I disagree on Spiral's comments on opinions, especially the implication that they are worthless. Naturally, as he has noted, presentation of support lends considerably more credibility to such observations. However, in many cases even opinions expressed as perspective of individuals not necessarily familiar or studied on a specific topic may on occasion present a direction in investigation that may have been overlooked. We have all experienced the Occams Razor 'syndrome' and the familiar 'hoofbeats' axiom....upon hearing them, one does not instantly look for a zebra!

I think that Yannis' original observations, and his subsequent additions present excellent support for the 19th century theme dagger, and that the other posts have presented excellent support for the Esmeralda figure and Notre Dame theme. Katana has continued to present some outstanding literary and artistic detection in his observations that in my 'opinion' carry substantial plausibility.

In discussions on such arcane topics as occult esoterica, it must be realized that the degree of subjectivity in observations theorizing symbolism can only be described as exceptional. In the case of trying to determine any sort of standardization in the method of viewing scabbards or overall motif of edged weapons in order to contrive certain symbolism seems in 'my opinion' specious, as it would seem that no such order must exist. Naturally by stating that, I must recognize that my own comment suggesting certain viewing upright of scabbards was based on something read 'in passim' and must be regarded as a specious comment as well at this point. I actually believe my thought was prompted by a passage possibly during research on traditional or ceremonial use of swords but honestly cannot recall.

Obviously most of what has been discussed here concerns perception, and certainly as has been shown with observations on upside down crosses, churches, sacrificial goats etc. one can see the motif on this dagger as sinister or as has been described, 'classical'. During the 18th century there were a great deal of mystical, metaphysical, cabalistic, Masonic symbolisms that materialized on weapons markings and decorative elements. The development of secret orders and societies gained popularity along with occultism and other arcane pursuits, all leading to certain forms of regalia including most likely weapons as discussed and shown here, well into the 19th century and clearly into out own times. Since such secrecy in the meanings and symbolism of much of this has been essentially lost to the ages, and subsequent writings and detail have been often discredited, we can typically only speculate what may have been intended.

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and thinking what nobody has thought."
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

I think all of the opinions here are exceptionally valuable concerning this weapon, and well represent the comprehensive knowledge of those who post here on even the most esoteric of topics. I know I've learned a lot here!
Thanks guys

All best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Spiral!

Some more opinions...followed by the start of some cold, hard facts..

Looking at your priestess/Esmeralda figure, she seems rather sensual and "nice" doesn't she? I mean a good person caressing her pet goat. She certainly doesn't bear the look of a crazed hooded priestess about to slaughter an animal...look at the paintings of the Sacrifice of Isaac (is it?) by Abraham, he is tied and unable to move the same for the lamb he slaughters instead, tied animal. Even the sacrifices of goats and bulls by Nepalis are tied and held so as not to move. This here goat is actually fawning all over her would be executioner. If the figure were grasping the dagger at her waist then I would agree she could be about to commit sacrifice but otherwise...

Now the facts are coming...just saw a pic of an early "gothic dagger" in the Reubell Collection (Bashford, Dean. The Reubell Collection of Court Swords and Early Daggers, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 21, No. 10. (1926): 228-233) the scabbard is heavily carved and sculpted horizontally so the dagger is held horizontally in this case, obviously for display I think. Doesn't have the figural hilt, which in this case looks Swiss.
I've also found the index of a catalogue in my library with an illustrated ornamented early gothic dagger. Will get it in a few hours and scan pics, that should provide some eyecandy and facts.

That's John Powell behind you isn't it? The Nahan Sirmoor looks beautiful in hand, that's some niiice khukri
Emanuel

[fenlander]

Originally Posted by David

I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams.

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?

[Yannis]

Nice observation Manolo!

Let’s talk about goats. For you that you are not familiar with them I have to say that goats are no pets. They are neurotic creatures who jump around and don’t like humans except their shepherds. This particular goat on the hilt looks quite happy to be in close touch with the lady. The body language is more of a dog! If it was a dog there what would you think? Not sacrifice of course!

[wolviex]

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too . No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers

[Tim Simmons]

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

[David]

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade.
I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless.
There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

[David]

Originally Posted by fenlander

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?

Give me a day or so to look through my library.