European Military Patterns- Ethnographic or not?

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I do think the original topic is interesting and hope we can focus on that while continuing martial arts, equally interesting, on another thread. I am always amazed at the tremendous core of knowledge on these topics held by the membership here!

All best regards,
Jim

Good point, Jim thanks for the reminder It should have been on a different thread

[Paul Digard]

Here's some pics to illustrate blurring of the boundaries between early C19 regulation British military swords and ethnographic weaponry. Evidence of information flows both ways!

Top to bottom:

1) A rehilted (and reshaped at the point) P1796 light cavalry blade. The blade is unquestionably such as it still has the maker's name of WOOLEY SARGANT and CRANE (c1818-20) and its government inspection stamps.

2) A P1803 grenadier officer's sword. The hilt is the regulation pattern with a GR cypher in the knucklebow but the blade is what I would call a shamshir. I've no reason to think it's a dealer's fantasy put together in recent years as although the scabbard is unfortunately broken, enough survives to show that it fits quite well.

3) A late Georgian cavalry officer's mameluke sabre. This one has no markings at all that I can find but I've seen twins marked to London and Dublin cutlers so i think it's of entirely British manufacture. Clearly inspired by non-European sources though!

Paul

[Jim McDougall]

No problem RhysMichael ! My note was not directed specifically at your post, which was nicely done BTW, just at the course the discussion was taking.

Paul,
Excellent post and fantastic sabres!!!!!

The subject of the influence of ethnographic swords on European military swords has long been a topic fascinating to me, and I have often been drawn to it in varying research. I have seen Georgian light cavalry sabres that have clearly British made blades with yelman, Georgian cavalry troopers sabres with fully parabolic blades distinctly recalling the shamshir curve although having the pipeback rib the full length etc. Clearly these are blades that reflect the influence of these much admired Eastern sabres.

It is well known that during the campaigns in Egypt led to Western admiration of the sabres of the Mamluks, and the subsequent adoption of not only the distinctive Mamluk Ottoman form hilt by both Great Britian and France, but certainly the fascination with the curved and yelmanned blades.

The development of the use of sabres, as discussed by Rivkin, clearly influenced the swords used by Eastern European armies as evidenced by those of Poland and Hungary and eventually all of Europe.

In the development of the famed M1796 light cavalry sabre for Great Britian, LeMarchant the following excerpt is of interest:

"...the Turkish sword, or kilij, had much impressed LeMarchant. The Ottoman cavalry were regarded as being among the best in Europe, and he felt that their superiority was not entirely due to thier brilliant riding and dash. Their blades, short and strongly curved in fine, watered Damascus steel, were essentially cutting weapons made to suit the natural slashing tendancy of a swordsman in a melee. In direct contrast was the British heavy cavalry broadsword, two edged, designed purely for thrusting, some 35" long and ungovernably heavy. "without a doubt", wrote LeMarchant, "the expertly used scimitar blades of the Turks, Mamelukes, Moors and Hungarians have proved that a light sword, if equally applicable to a cut or thrust. is preferable to any other".

"Scientific Soldier:A Life of General LeMarchant", R.H.Thoumaine, 1968, pp43-44.


LeMarchant worked closely with British sword maker Henry Osborn, to develop what has been called by many one of the finest cutting weapons ever forged, the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. These were used for the next 20 years and were regarded by French commanders in the Peninsula as being 'too effective, and barbarous causing terrible wounds', a rather obtuse compliment.

Ironically, in later years when these sabres were becoming obsolete and being replaced or discarded, it became a concern of British forces in India that the native warriors were incredibly deadly in their use of the sword. The British were stunned when they discovered that the effectiveness of the swords used by the warriors was primarily in the sharpness, and that the warriors were actually using the discarded or captured M1796 blades!
The Indian armourers were rehilting these blades in their own hilts.

In another ironic note, I own a tulwar which carries a M1796 blade which is clearly marked 'Osborne' ! who was of course instrumental in developing the British blades influenced by Eastern sabres.

I think as Paul has noted, these are considerations well placed in the diffusion of ethnographic vs. pattern in the development of swords.

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim and Paul,
Excellent posts and information, thanks

[Paul Digard]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

[Regarding the British P1796]

Ironically, in later years when these sabres were becoming obsolete and being replaced or discarded, it became a concern of British forces in India that the native warriors were incredibly deadly in their use of the sword. The British were stunned when they discovered that the effectiveness of the swords used by the warriors was primarily in the sharpness, and that the warriors were actually using the discarded or captured M1796 blades!
The Indian armourers were rehilting these blades in their own hilts.

Jim, when searching through my notes for something else I came across this letter to the Times from 1855. I'm sure you've already seen it (I think I lifted it from a post on SFI in 2001) but it's worth repeating I think.

Paul

The Times 5.4.1855 p 6

Letter

TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES

Sir, - 'Jacob Omnium' has quoted from a work by Captain Hartmann, of the 15th Hussars, upon cavalry and cavalry tactics. Allow me to draw attention to the work
of an officer of the same regiment (published not long before his death), the late lamented Captain Lewis Nolan, who was the bearer of the order to advance to Lord
Lucan, and who was killed in the memorable charge at Balaklava - a work which merits the attention of the authorities.

Captain Nolan makes known a most extraordinary circumstance in respect to the effectiveness of the weapons used in cavalry of various nations.

He relates that at the battle of Villiers en Couche, in the Low Countries, his regiment, the 15th Hussars (now in India) distinguished itself in collision with a
superior body of French cavalry, then considered the best in Europe. Three squadrons of the 15th charged twice through the enemy - once in advancing, and then
again in retiring. They left in these two collisions but three men killed on the field, and four were wounded, of whom one was the officer then commanding the
regiment, the late Sir James Irskine. The regiment now bears 'Villiers en Couche' on its standards for its distinguished conduct there. But mark the difference
between European and Asiatic encounters of cavalry! At the battle of Goojerat, the last great battle fought and won by Lord Gough in India, Lieutenant-Colonel
Unett (then Captain Unett) was ordered to advance and attack a body of Sikh cavalry with two squadrons of his regiment (the 3d Dragoons), supported by two
native cavalry regiments on his flanks. They charged; but the two flank regiments, not liking the fire of some matchlock men into which they got, turned and fled.
The two squadrons of the 3d went on, and cut their way through the enemy's cavalry! When they returned, the Sikhs opened out, and let them through, so that they
did not come into collision in retiring; but how many men out of these two squadrons were left upon the field in that one collision with the Sikhs, think you? 46!

Captain Nolan asked himself how this could be, that at Villiers en Couche three squadrons of English Dragoons, charging through a body of European cavalry, lose
but seven men, four of whom were only wounded; while against Asiatic cavalry two squadrons coming into collision with the enemy but once only lose 46 men.

He determined to see what sort of cavalry these were that had shown such prowess, and had caused us so remarkable a loss; and he took the first opportunity that
offered of visiting an encampment of them. He found them small, mean-looking men, mounted upon small, mean-looking horses, and armed, to his great surprise,
with our much-abused sabres of the old pattern - the old regulation Light Dragoon sabre - of which it was said, I recollect, when they were in use in our service, that
they never cut at all, but only bruised an enemy. The Asiatics, however, considered them (when sharpened as they had them) as the best weapons in the world.
They had altered them in some respects, however. They had accommodated the size of the hilt to their smaller hands; and there was this remarkable change from the
original shape of the hilt, - that whereas when used by us they had a round grasp, the Sikhs had substituted a square one, which not only enabled them to hold the
weapon more firmly, but enabled them to apply the edge of the blade exactly to a nicety; so that in this way, they (literally) lopped off, at one shave, heads and
arms, wherever they struck, the blades being as sharp as a razor, and kept so by being, when not in use, thrust into a close-fitting wooden sheath, instead of the
rattletrap steel thing we use, which turns every blade. Let us have some such cavalry light men as 'Jacob Omnium' recommends, armed with swords with
square-hilted grasps, and sharpened as a razor, upon horses from 14 hands 2 inches to 15 hands high, and as near the Arab as possible, and they will give a good
account of the enemy's heavies, you may depend upon it, except, it may be, in a confined space, as in a street, where weight will tell, as it told before Waterloo, in
the charge of the French Cuirassiers against the gallant 7th Hussars, which were brought up against them, perhaps unadvisedly, by Lord Anglesey, when the army
retired from Quatre Bras to Waterloo.

I am, Sir, your obedient humble servant

OMNIBUS

[katana]

Thanks Paul,
excellent post,...........and MORE proof that smaller hilt size (Indian weapons) was attributable to their 'smaller' hands.....


David