European Military Patterns- Ethnographic or not?

[ShayanMirza]

Well that's interesting that you don't believe in the martial capabilities of hundreds of millions of people, but he's not Middle Eastern to begin with.

Just curious, where are you from?

[Rivkin]

Has nothing to do with their capabalities... It is just that I never seen a "middle eastern style" artist who would have known the middle eastern weapons well enough to be qualified as an expert, never mind knowing things that are completely essential to the eastern combat - horsemanship with all its attributes, traditional archery, armour, tactics, navigation, the use of terrain, performance on horses in formation, djigitovka and so on and so on. Well, neither do I, therefore I refer to people who actually served in old armies and actually did kill someone.

[ShayanMirza]

The shamshir was also fully capable on foot according to contemporary accounts, and though I work in a barn on weekends, riding them with a sword might get me fired and void my insurance...his demonstration was on foot, although he has actually taken classes in horseback combat (in which the graduating test was putting 5 men and 5 horses in a small ring with blunted weapons, and whoever stayed on longest won.) Anyways, he's an expert on Chinese dao techniques and learned escrima in the Philippines (he is in fact half Filipino, of a family that used edged weapons in combat in the last century), both of which use extensive slashing and hooking thrusts. In short, he is a killing maching with anything you put in his hand. I trust his knowledge of the principles of combat far more than I would trust any written source, unless it be a contemporary manual by a universally celebrated swordsman. And I trust my own eyes. His hooking thrusts were efficient and practical.

Rivkin, are you perchance from anywhere near Georgia (the country)?

[Rivkin]

I will be honest - I do not know the man you are talking about; what I do not believe is that the word of martial artist should be held over the word of contemporary (i.e. medieval) manual or source, not nessesaraly written by a universally recognized swordsman, since we do not really know who was the top of the cream in 1657.

5 with blunt weapons is a good djigitovka, however I would suggest giving them real weapons (since it is a graduating test) and asking to chop off plums from each other's helmets (this is more historically accurate). However this would not qualify him (I am sorry) to be a middle eastern warrior, just best out of five. There are such things as mamluk manuals, and the level of mamluks was sort of good upper level; when they would slack a little bit, they would be beaten mercillesly by arab bedouins, so we must assume that good armies composed of arab beduins, mongols, turks and others had somewhat similar performance standards, a little bit better, a little bit worse.

I can not imagine anyone remotely approaching the level of mamluk _regular_ soldier. Chopping sheets of paper, where you are told exactly at which layer to stop (i.e. 4th out of 50) ?? Sustaining the rate of aimed fire - 2 shots per second ? Chopping sticks put up into ground 1 yard or so from each other, on alternative sides, at a full gallop from the horseback ? I am not mentioning a great range of other things, but it is staggering. Not to mention that until the middle of XXth century most archery standards held in the medieval middle east where considered in Europe to be pure fantasy, since no one can come close to such feats. But that's what training 24/7 under a guidance of a prominent warrior, since the age of 7 will do to you.

And this is exactly why I am very sceptical concerning martial arts. There are some martial artists who read manuals, research accounts, interact with tribesman who still use weapons or research native sports, that very often contain traces of old military traditions. I respect their research (I honestly do). But when it is told "shamshir was used for hooked stabbing", I am not saying it is not possible, or it is not so, I just do not believe in it. The reasons - no one mentioned it and geometry of the point is different from typical "armour piercing" points one sees.

Concerning my origins, which greatly interest the swordforum community, I have decided to become an isareli-backed turkist or may be even a jew. Makes people madder !

[katana]

Hi,
I am one of those guilty of posting some British military pattern swords....but I feel there is some relevence to the topic of Ethnographic edged weapons.

Colonial rule by European powers introduced Africa , India, SEA etc.to external influences in weapon design and manufacture.(and of course the other way round) The trade in European blades to the local inhabitants increased the creation of 'Hybrids' of manufactured blade with local hilting styles and local modification.
It also helps to put into context the weapons faced by the defending local people with their ethnic edged weapons, armour and tactics.
Could it be argued that the Tulwar, even with the variation in blade design, curveature etc. is a 'pattern' sword?

I have tried to acquire some 'Colonial' period swords to 'balance' those Ethnographic ones of the same period. For instance I acquired a Wilkinson light cavalry sabre and a Sudanese Kaskara from the same source. It is quite likely that the Sabre and Kaskara 'met' in the Mahdist Sudan. (further research, hopefully will confirm this) To me that makes them a 'pair' and relavent to my Ethnographic collection.

[Alan62]

Very interesting thread,
Please help a novice understand,does the term ethnographic define an ethnicity or a region as it seems to be a word defining both and to this very new guy would seem to describe anything that is of a people or culture and from a region or specific geographic location.I guess I should go look the word up in a dictionary since i have not done that yet,but I will.
Again very good thread
Thanks for the information

[Emanuel]

Interesting thing, the hooking thrust. It reminds me of the Abyssinian shotel, designed to reach opponents around their shields. Wouldn't the shamshir's handle be an obstacle to a hooking strike...one has to twist the fist which feels awckward. TO produce a powerful thrust I image a wide swing is needed, again awckward with the rotated hand. Can your teacher hit a target hard enough to cause hard damage?

I think one of the problems presented by Rivkin is that present fighting styles may not reflect actual use centuries ago. It seems to me that something as extraordinary-looking (to an European) as a hooking thrust would have been mentioned in written accounts by many sources and not just in English.
I can imagine what the motion would look like, but a video/clip of it would be nice...

About ethnographic weapons and European military patterns...I had thought it to refer firstly to weapons created within one specific culture and more or less unique to that culture, and secondly to represent weapons not resulting from industrial processes. As European pattern swords were mass-produced, the sense of cultural craft is maybe lost a little. It is regained when an individual in another land takes the mass-produced blade and alters or refits it to suit his culture - in that action manual craft is involved and each resulting weapon is different from any other.

Also realized something quite simple which I thing was true until quite recently: ethnographic would mostly represent something non-European resulting from manual craft...but then what about the puukko? So I'll stick to the non-industrial bit

Regards,
Emanuel