European Military Patterns- Ethnographic or not?

ShayanMirza · 8th January 2007, 03:47 AM

Wow, that's a great summary of saber history!

Regarding shamshirs, the writings extant in English have little to do with practicality, with some even speculating they were solely for hunting animals. However, my martial arts instructor (32 years experience studying and teaching numerous martial arts) demonstrated hooking thrusts to me with it while blunt steel sparring, and they were spectacular. I put far more stock in hands-on practicality in the world of weapons than I do on writing when it comes to technique.

Rivkin · 8th January 2007, 04:15 AM

It is your call. I believe that medieval training manuals/accounts should be consulted when one is interested in medieval fighting techniques; I do not believe in middle-eastern martial artists - most of them can't half-decently ride a horse, which brings into question whether they really understand the use of horse-based weaponry (which is what the east is all about) neither they ever killed someone in battle, i.e. they don't really know how the real use of the weapons look like.

ShayanMirza · 8th January 2007, 04:17 AM

Well that's interesting that you don't believe in the martial capabilities of hundreds of millions of people, but he's not Middle Eastern to begin with.

Just curious, where are you from?

Rivkin · 8th January 2007, 04:22 AM

Has nothing to do with their capabalities... It is just that I never seen a "middle eastern style" artist who would have known the middle eastern weapons well enough to be qualified as an expert, never mind knowing things that are completely essential to the eastern combat - horsemanship with all its attributes, traditional archery, armour, tactics, navigation, the use of terrain, performance on horses in formation, djigitovka and so on and so on. Well, neither do I, therefore I refer to people who actually served in old armies and actually did kill someone.

ShayanMirza · 8th January 2007, 04:32 AM

The shamshir was also fully capable on foot according to contemporary accounts, and though I work in a barn on weekends, riding them with a sword might get me fired and void my insurance...his demonstration was on foot, although he has actually taken classes in horseback combat (in which the graduating test was putting 5 men and 5 horses in a small ring with blunted weapons, and whoever stayed on longest won.) Anyways, he's an expert on Chinese dao techniques and learned escrima in the Philippines (he is in fact half Filipino, of a family that used edged weapons in combat in the last century), both of which use extensive slashing and hooking thrusts. In short, he is a killing maching with anything you put in his hand. I trust his knowledge of the principles of combat far more than I would trust any written source, unless it be a contemporary manual by a universally celebrated swordsman. And I trust my own eyes. His hooking thrusts were efficient and practical.

Rivkin, are you perchance from anywhere near Georgia (the country)?

Rivkin · 8th January 2007, 05:12 AM

I will be honest - I do not know the man you are talking about; what I do not believe is that the word of martial artist should be held over the word of contemporary (i.e. medieval) manual or source, not nessesaraly written by a universally recognized swordsman, since we do not really know who was the top of the cream in 1657.

5 with blunt weapons is a good djigitovka, however I would suggest giving them real weapons (since it is a graduating test) and asking to chop off plums from each other's helmets (this is more historically accurate). However this would not qualify him (I am sorry) to be a middle eastern warrior, just best out of five. There are such things as mamluk manuals, and the level of mamluks was sort of good upper level; when they would slack a little bit, they would be beaten mercillesly by arab bedouins, so we must assume that good armies composed of arab beduins, mongols, turks and others had somewhat similar performance standards, a little bit better, a little bit worse.

I can not imagine anyone remotely approaching the level of mamluk _regular_ soldier. Chopping sheets of paper, where you are told exactly at which layer to stop (i.e. 4th out of 50) ?? Sustaining the rate of aimed fire - 2 shots per second ? Chopping sticks put up into ground 1 yard or so from each other, on alternative sides, at a full gallop from the horseback ? I am not mentioning a great range of other things, but it is staggering. Not to mention that until the middle of XXth century most archery standards held in the medieval middle east where considered in Europe to be pure fantasy, since no one can come close to such feats. But that's what training 24/7 under a guidance of a prominent warrior, since the age of 7 will do to you.

And this is exactly why I am very sceptical concerning martial arts. There are some martial artists who read manuals, research accounts, interact with tribesman who still use weapons or research native sports, that very often contain traces of old military traditions. I respect their research (I honestly do). But when it is told "shamshir was used for hooked stabbing", I am not saying it is not possible, or it is not so, I just do not believe in it. The reasons - no one mentioned it and geometry of the point is different from typical "armour piercing" points one sees.

Concerning my origins, which greatly interest the swordforum community, I have decided to become an isareli-backed turkist or may be even a jew. Makes people madder

!

katana · 8th January 2007, 12:17 PM

Hi,
I am one of those guilty of posting some British military pattern swords....but I feel there is some relevence to the topic of Ethnographic edged weapons.

Colonial rule by European powers introduced Africa , India, SEA etc.to external influences in weapon design and manufacture.(and of course the other way round) The trade in European blades to the local inhabitants increased the creation of 'Hybrids' of manufactured blade with local hilting styles and local modification.
It also helps to put into context the weapons faced by the defending local people with their ethnic edged weapons, armour and tactics.
Could it be argued that the Tulwar, even with the variation in blade design, curveature etc. is a 'pattern' sword?

I have tried to acquire some 'Colonial' period swords to 'balance' those Ethnographic ones of the same period. For instance I acquired a Wilkinson light cavalry sabre and a Sudanese Kaskara from the same source. It is quite likely that the Sabre and Kaskara 'met' in the Mahdist Sudan. (further research, hopefully will confirm this) To me that makes them a 'pair' and relavent to my Ethnographic collection.

Alan62 · 8th January 2007, 12:41 PM

Very interesting thread,
Please help a novice understand,does the term ethnographic define an ethnicity or a region as it seems to be a word defining both and to this very new guy would seem to describe anything that is of a people or culture and from a region or specific geographic location.I guess I should go look the word up in a dictionary since i have not done that yet,but I will.
Again very good thread
Thanks for the information

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2007, 04:20 AM

Exactly

RhysMichael · 8th January 2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I do not believe in middle-eastern martial artists - most of them can't half-decently ride a horse, which brings into question whether they really understand the use of horse-based weaponry (which is what the east is all about) neither they ever killed someone in battle, i.e. they don't really know how the real use of the weapons look like.

I understand your being skeptical but I do not know how many middle eastern martial artists you have seen. I know my sampling would be very small but I would not dismiss it as not having true matial arts practicioners. If you were to come to my home town you could go from matial arts school to maritlal arts school and depending on luck of the draw never go to a school where the instructor had actually been in a fight or done contact sparring. Does that mean there are no true eastern matial artists here? No, it does not. There are many good schools here, but they often are not the best marketed or the ones with the fullest classes. I can remember when FMA were virtually unknown outside their country of origin. They were not comercialized and publisized but they were there. It difficult to find a true Bando or Thaing school now. But I do not believe these martial arts are dead. How long ago was it that SCA sparring was considered a true representation of WMA ? If you had looked at them would you have said there were no true WMA martial artists? or just that they were a rarity ?

I agree to you that many of those who tout themself as experts of middle eastern matial arts ( or any other martial art ) are not and we should look at them with a "show me" attitude but that does not mean they do not exist

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2007, 05:03 PM

Excellent post Katana! Exactly what I was trying to point out!

What we have been trying to say here, and the original topic of the thread, is that military patterns in some degree 'effect' ethnographic weapons and thier development typically in colonial situations. However, I am not sure that such association warrants thier reclassification. In the case of the 'hybrids' we have noted, I believe that they need to be adequately described rather than reclassified.

The diversion to martial arts, the grim practical details of the weapons purpose etc. while interesting, seems counterproductive to this discussion. Although I think we all know that the primary function of a weapon is to inflict injury or death to an enemy or adversary, I cannot see how that effects the classification of a weapon in its study, in terms of whether it is 'ethnographic' or not. I must admit that my perspective on weapons is more from a culturally artistic standpoint in studying typology, symbolism and influences in design. I honestly prefer to avoid the unfortunate details of thier practical use, although naturally such details often must be considered in degree in looking at design application in blade forms etc.

I do think the original topic is interesting and hope we can focus on that while continuing martial arts, equally interesting, on another thread. I am always amazed at the tremendous core of knowledge on these topics held by the membership here!

All best regards,
Jim

RhysMichael · 8th January 2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I do think the original topic is interesting and hope we can focus on that while continuing martial arts, equally interesting, on another thread. I am always amazed at the tremendous core of knowledge on these topics held by the membership here!

All best regards,
Jim

Good point, Jim thanks for the reminder It should have been on a different thread

Paul Digard · 8th January 2007, 06:31 PM

Here's some pics to illustrate blurring of the boundaries between early C19 regulation British military swords and ethnographic weaponry. Evidence of information flows both ways!

Top to bottom:

1) A rehilted (and reshaped at the point) P1796 light cavalry blade. The blade is unquestionably such as it still has the maker's name of WOOLEY SARGANT and CRANE (c1818-20) and its government inspection stamps.

2) A P1803 grenadier officer's sword. The hilt is the regulation pattern with a GR cypher in the knucklebow but the blade is what I would call a shamshir. I've no reason to think it's a dealer's fantasy put together in recent years as although the scabbard is unfortunately broken, enough survives to show that it fits quite well.

3) A late Georgian cavalry officer's mameluke sabre. This one has no markings at all that I can find but I've seen twins marked to London and Dublin cutlers so i think it's of entirely British manufacture. Clearly inspired by non-European sources though!

Paul

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2007, 08:13 PM

No problem RhysMichael ! My note was not directed specifically at your post, which was nicely done BTW, just at the course the discussion was taking.

Paul,
Excellent post and fantastic sabres!!!!!

The subject of the influence of ethnographic swords on European military swords has long been a topic fascinating to me, and I have often been drawn to it in varying research. I have seen Georgian light cavalry sabres that have clearly British made blades with yelman, Georgian cavalry troopers sabres with fully parabolic blades distinctly recalling the shamshir curve although having the pipeback rib the full length etc. Clearly these are blades that reflect the influence of these much admired Eastern sabres.

It is well known that during the campaigns in Egypt led to Western admiration of the sabres of the Mamluks, and the subsequent adoption of not only the distinctive Mamluk Ottoman form hilt by both Great Britian and France, but certainly the fascination with the curved and yelmanned blades.

The development of the use of sabres, as discussed by Rivkin, clearly influenced the swords used by Eastern European armies as evidenced by those of Poland and Hungary and eventually all of Europe.

In the development of the famed M1796 light cavalry sabre for Great Britian, LeMarchant the following excerpt is of interest:

"...the Turkish sword, or kilij, had much impressed LeMarchant. The Ottoman cavalry were regarded as being among the best in Europe, and he felt that their superiority was not entirely due to thier brilliant riding and dash. Their blades, short and strongly curved in fine, watered Damascus steel, were essentially cutting weapons made to suit the natural slashing tendancy of a swordsman in a melee. In direct contrast was the British heavy cavalry broadsword, two edged, designed purely for thrusting, some 35" long and ungovernably heavy. "without a doubt", wrote LeMarchant, "the expertly used scimitar blades of the Turks, Mamelukes, Moors and Hungarians have proved that a light sword, if equally applicable to a cut or thrust. is preferable to any other".

"Scientific Soldier:A Life of General LeMarchant", R.H.Thoumaine, 1968, pp43-44.

LeMarchant worked closely with British sword maker Henry Osborn, to develop what has been called by many one of the finest cutting weapons ever forged, the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. These were used for the next 20 years and were regarded by French commanders in the Peninsula as being 'too effective, and barbarous causing terrible wounds', a rather obtuse compliment.

Ironically, in later years when these sabres were becoming obsolete and being replaced or discarded, it became a concern of British forces in India that the native warriors were incredibly deadly in their use of the sword. The British were stunned when they discovered that the effectiveness of the swords used by the warriors was primarily in the sharpness, and that the warriors were actually using the discarded or captured M1796 blades!
The Indian armourers were rehilting these blades in their own hilts.

In another ironic note, I own a tulwar which carries a M1796 blade which is clearly marked 'Osborne' ! who was of course instrumental in developing the British blades influenced by Eastern sabres.

I think as Paul has noted, these are considerations well placed in the diffusion of ethnographic vs. pattern in the development of swords.

All best regards,
Jim

8th January 2007, 06:31 PM	#13
Paul Digard Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	Crossover swords Here's some pics to illustrate blurring of the boundaries between early C19 regulation British military swords and ethnographic weaponry. Evidence of information flows both ways! Top to bottom: 1) A rehilted (and reshaped at the point) P1796 light cavalry blade. The blade is unquestionably such as it still has the maker's name of WOOLEY SARGANT and CRANE (c1818-20) and its government inspection stamps. 2) A P1803 grenadier officer's sword. The hilt is the regulation pattern with a GR cypher in the knucklebow but the blade is what I would call a shamshir. I've no reason to think it's a dealer's fantasy put together in recent years as although the scabbard is unfortunately broken, enough survives to show that it fits quite well. 3) A late Georgian cavalry officer's mameluke sabre. This one has no markings at all that I can find but I've seen twins marked to London and Dublin cutlers so i think it's of entirely British manufacture. Clearly inspired by non-European sources though! Paul Attached Images

8th January 2007, 03:47 AM	#1
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	Wow, that's a great summary of saber history! Regarding shamshirs, the writings extant in English have little to do with practicality, with some even speculating they were solely for hunting animals. However, my martial arts instructor (32 years experience studying and teaching numerous martial arts) demonstrated hooking thrusts to me with it while blunt steel sparring, and they were spectacular. I put far more stock in hands-on practicality in the world of weapons than I do on writing when it comes to technique.

8th January 2007, 04:15 AM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It is your call. I believe that medieval training manuals/accounts should be consulted when one is interested in medieval fighting techniques; I do not believe in middle-eastern martial artists - most of them can't half-decently ride a horse, which brings into question whether they really understand the use of horse-based weaponry (which is what the east is all about) neither they ever killed someone in battle, i.e. they don't really know how the real use of the weapons look like.

8th January 2007, 04:17 AM	#3
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	Well that's interesting that you don't believe in the martial capabilities of hundreds of millions of people, but he's not Middle Eastern to begin with. Just curious, where are you from?

8th January 2007, 04:22 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Has nothing to do with their capabalities... It is just that I never seen a "middle eastern style" artist who would have known the middle eastern weapons well enough to be qualified as an expert, never mind knowing things that are completely essential to the eastern combat - horsemanship with all its attributes, traditional archery, armour, tactics, navigation, the use of terrain, performance on horses in formation, djigitovka and so on and so on. Well, neither do I, therefore I refer to people who actually served in old armies and actually did kill someone.

8th January 2007, 04:32 AM	#5
ShayanMirza Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlottesville Posts: 25	The shamshir was also fully capable on foot according to contemporary accounts, and though I work in a barn on weekends, riding them with a sword might get me fired and void my insurance...his demonstration was on foot, although he has actually taken classes in horseback combat (in which the graduating test was putting 5 men and 5 horses in a small ring with blunted weapons, and whoever stayed on longest won.) Anyways, he's an expert on Chinese dao techniques and learned escrima in the Philippines (he is in fact half Filipino, of a family that used edged weapons in combat in the last century), both of which use extensive slashing and hooking thrusts. In short, he is a killing maching with anything you put in his hand. I trust his knowledge of the principles of combat far more than I would trust any written source, unless it be a contemporary manual by a universally celebrated swordsman. And I trust my own eyes. His hooking thrusts were efficient and practical. Rivkin, are you perchance from anywhere near Georgia (the country)?

8th January 2007, 05:12 AM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I will be honest - I do not know the man you are talking about; what I do not believe is that the word of martial artist should be held over the word of contemporary (i.e. medieval) manual or source, not nessesaraly written by a universally recognized swordsman, since we do not really know who was the top of the cream in 1657. 5 with blunt weapons is a good djigitovka, however I would suggest giving them real weapons (since it is a graduating test) and asking to chop off plums from each other's helmets (this is more historically accurate). However this would not qualify him (I am sorry) to be a middle eastern warrior, just best out of five. There are such things as mamluk manuals, and the level of mamluks was sort of good upper level; when they would slack a little bit, they would be beaten mercillesly by arab bedouins, so we must assume that good armies composed of arab beduins, mongols, turks and others had somewhat similar performance standards, a little bit better, a little bit worse. I can not imagine anyone remotely approaching the level of mamluk _regular_ soldier. Chopping sheets of paper, where you are told exactly at which layer to stop (i.e. 4th out of 50) ?? Sustaining the rate of aimed fire - 2 shots per second ? Chopping sticks put up into ground 1 yard or so from each other, on alternative sides, at a full gallop from the horseback ? I am not mentioning a great range of other things, but it is staggering. Not to mention that until the middle of XXth century most archery standards held in the medieval middle east where considered in Europe to be pure fantasy, since no one can come close to such feats. But that's what training 24/7 under a guidance of a prominent warrior, since the age of 7 will do to you. And this is exactly why I am very sceptical concerning martial arts. There are some martial artists who read manuals, research accounts, interact with tribesman who still use weapons or research native sports, that very often contain traces of old military traditions. I respect their research (I honestly do). But when it is told "shamshir was used for hooked stabbing", I am not saying it is not possible, or it is not so, I just do not believe in it. The reasons - no one mentioned it and geometry of the point is different from typical "armour piercing" points one sees. Concerning my origins, which greatly interest the swordforum community, I have decided to become an isareli-backed turkist or may be even a jew. Makes people madder !

8th January 2007, 12:17 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi, I am one of those guilty of posting some British military pattern swords....but I feel there is some relevence to the topic of Ethnographic edged weapons. Colonial rule by European powers introduced Africa , India, SEA etc.to external influences in weapon design and manufacture.(and of course the other way round) The trade in European blades to the local inhabitants increased the creation of 'Hybrids' of manufactured blade with local hilting styles and local modification. It also helps to put into context the weapons faced by the defending local people with their ethnic edged weapons, armour and tactics. Could it be argued that the Tulwar, even with the variation in blade design, curveature etc. is a 'pattern' sword? I have tried to acquire some 'Colonial' period swords to 'balance' those Ethnographic ones of the same period. For instance I acquired a Wilkinson light cavalry sabre and a Sudanese Kaskara from the same source. It is quite likely that the Sabre and Kaskara 'met' in the Mahdist Sudan. (further research, hopefully will confirm this) To me that makes them a 'pair' and relavent to my Ethnographic collection.

8th January 2007, 12:41 PM	#8
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Very interesting thread, Please help a novice understand,does the term ethnographic define an ethnicity or a region as it seems to be a word defining both and to this very new guy would seem to describe anything that is of a people or culture and from a region or specific geographic location.I guess I should go look the word up in a dictionary since i have not done that yet,but I will. Again very good thread Thanks for the information

8th January 2007, 04:20 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Exactly

8th January 2007, 05:03 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Excellent post Katana! Exactly what I was trying to point out! What we have been trying to say here, and the original topic of the thread, is that military patterns in some degree 'effect' ethnographic weapons and thier development typically in colonial situations. However, I am not sure that such association warrants thier reclassification. In the case of the 'hybrids' we have noted, I believe that they need to be adequately described rather than reclassified. The diversion to martial arts, the grim practical details of the weapons purpose etc. while interesting, seems counterproductive to this discussion. Although I think we all know that the primary function of a weapon is to inflict injury or death to an enemy or adversary, I cannot see how that effects the classification of a weapon in its study, in terms of whether it is 'ethnographic' or not. I must admit that my perspective on weapons is more from a culturally artistic standpoint in studying typology, symbolism and influences in design. I honestly prefer to avoid the unfortunate details of thier practical use, although naturally such details often must be considered in degree in looking at design application in blade forms etc. I do think the original topic is interesting and hope we can focus on that while continuing martial arts, equally interesting, on another thread. I am always amazed at the tremendous core of knowledge on these topics held by the membership here! All best regards, Jim

8th January 2007, 08:13 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	No problem RhysMichael ! My note was not directed specifically at your post, which was nicely done BTW, just at the course the discussion was taking. Paul, Excellent post and fantastic sabres!!!!! The subject of the influence of ethnographic swords on European military swords has long been a topic fascinating to me, and I have often been drawn to it in varying research. I have seen Georgian light cavalry sabres that have clearly British made blades with yelman, Georgian cavalry troopers sabres with fully parabolic blades distinctly recalling the shamshir curve although having the pipeback rib the full length etc. Clearly these are blades that reflect the influence of these much admired Eastern sabres. It is well known that during the campaigns in Egypt led to Western admiration of the sabres of the Mamluks, and the subsequent adoption of not only the distinctive Mamluk Ottoman form hilt by both Great Britian and France, but certainly the fascination with the curved and yelmanned blades. The development of the use of sabres, as discussed by Rivkin, clearly influenced the swords used by Eastern European armies as evidenced by those of Poland and Hungary and eventually all of Europe. In the development of the famed M1796 light cavalry sabre for Great Britian, LeMarchant the following excerpt is of interest: "...the Turkish sword, or kilij, had much impressed LeMarchant. The Ottoman cavalry were regarded as being among the best in Europe, and he felt that their superiority was not entirely due to thier brilliant riding and dash. Their blades, short and strongly curved in fine, watered Damascus steel, were essentially cutting weapons made to suit the natural slashing tendancy of a swordsman in a melee. In direct contrast was the British heavy cavalry broadsword, two edged, designed purely for thrusting, some 35" long and ungovernably heavy. "without a doubt", wrote LeMarchant, "the expertly used scimitar blades of the Turks, Mamelukes, Moors and Hungarians have proved that a light sword, if equally applicable to a cut or thrust. is preferable to any other". "Scientific Soldier:A Life of General LeMarchant", R.H.Thoumaine, 1968, pp43-44. LeMarchant worked closely with British sword maker Henry Osborn, to develop what has been called by many one of the finest cutting weapons ever forged, the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. These were used for the next 20 years and were regarded by French commanders in the Peninsula as being 'too effective, and barbarous causing terrible wounds', a rather obtuse compliment. Ironically, in later years when these sabres were becoming obsolete and being replaced or discarded, it became a concern of British forces in India that the native warriors were incredibly deadly in their use of the sword. The British were stunned when they discovered that the effectiveness of the swords used by the warriors was primarily in the sharpness, and that the warriors were actually using the discarded or captured M1796 blades! The Indian armourers were rehilting these blades in their own hilts. In another ironic note, I own a tulwar which carries a M1796 blade which is clearly marked 'Osborne' ! who was of course instrumental in developing the British blades influenced by Eastern sabres. I think as Paul has noted, these are considerations well placed in the diffusion of ethnographic vs. pattern in the development of swords. All best regards, Jim