Identification of an indonesian dagger

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your invitation to comment further, Henk, but I really have nothing further to contribute.

I know nothing more, and I dislike hypothesis without evidence or logical argument.

I do have a couple of these things around somewhere, if I can locate them I`ll post pics.

[drdavid]

Hi all,
Just to put one thread of this to bed. I collected bayonets for quite a number of years and have owned a number of the triangular form bayonets (still have one on the shelf). This item is not a modified bayonet from any form I have ever seen, the cross section is all wrong. It is most certainly not a Brown Bess.
cheers
DrD

[Henk]

Alan,

I hoped that the mark and the pictures of the tang could give any further information. I completely agree with you that speculating without evidence or logical arguments is useless. I invited you to comment because i highly appreciate your input and knowledge.
If you can manage to show some pics of a sangkuh to compare, it would be very nice.

DrD,

I agree with you that it is not a bayonet. It is just not right. I stay with the names Alan gave us for this weapon. Sangkuh or Buntut Mimi.

[A. G. Maisey]

I undertook to post some pics of sangkuh in my possession. I have located one of these, and here are the pics.

Harsrinuksmo has an entry for a tombak of this triangular shape that he calls a "lingiran". In Javanese the word "lingiran" simply means something with sharp sides.

Any of these blades that I have seen have not been tombak, as all have lacked a metuk.

Harsrinuksmo notes that some people are of the opinion that this form was inspired by old-time bayonets.

[Henk]

Thanks for posting pics of your sangkuh, Alan.

The similarity on the second picture is the forging pattern of the blade above the pamor. That is what is vissible on mine example too.

The difference between your sangkuh and mine is the base. The peksi of your example is round and the base is worked out with rings where the peksi ended and the blade begins, like a methuk then the blade is getting smoothly broader. Mine peksi is square and between the peksi and the base of the blade there is no transition.
As you wrote: Harsrinuksmo notes that some people are of the opinion that this form was inspired by old-time bayonets.
I did find out that the dutch army used such triangular bajonets. But those bajonets certainly weren't forged and made of plain steel.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Sangkuh, IMHO, could be an alteration and looks very identic to word 'Sangkur', a Javanese and Bahasa word, which in English means, as we expect, bayonet. I haven't heard here in Jogjakarta that this kind of blade would be classified as 'sangkuh', but I would except it, as I cannot give any other alternate names, while this kind of dagger quite familiar
I had also found 'true bayonet', with a ring for mounting the blade onto the muzzle, (or 'a round elbowformed tube to the socket' as Henk describe) and with a splitted pamor, exactly like Henk and Alan have. Could it be a Javanese made bayonet ? But for sure, it is not a tombak/spear. Tombak, as Alan said, need a 'methuk' to be mounted onto the spear shaft, in Javanese style spear. In fact, looking for a good methuk is the first step on assesing the tombak blades. the 'lingiran' tombak usually has an equilateral triangle shape, with a long pesi, and a methuk. The more common is the quadrangular, phillips screwdriver's shape which may leave a nasty ' + ' shape if you let it come into your stomach This quadrangular blade usually called 'cipiran', shaped like cipir, a kind of tasty vegetables.

But if you ask me to vote, I may vote for modified bayonet. A flat side with a fuller and marking on one side only is a typical to this blade, as Henk pictures show.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, "sangkuh" is Javanese for "sangkur".

I only knew the Javanese, which is all I`ve ever heard these referred to in Solo, but after I read your post I checked a couple of dictionaries, and sure enough, sangkur is the Indonesian equivalent of sangkuh.

[VVV]

Yesterday I found where I had stowed away my Sangkuh/Sangkur.
I got it several years ago in an auction lot together with several other Indonesian weapons.
At first I didn't feel like keeping it because of the dress. But then I noticed a collection number and thought it was strange that a bayonet blade was mounted as a Keris. And all the other weapons from that collection were interesting. So I decided that it was better to keep it until I found out what it was. Thanks to this thread I did and here is another example.

I also found this combination weapon at eBay and thought it was a Sumatran Kaso.
But now I assume that it's also a Sankuh.

Michael

PS More pictures at http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

[Henk]

Michael,

The dress for that sangkuh is most unusual. That madurese kerisdress is from the period 1945-1950, made for the dutch soldiers to bring home. Just like the kerisdress with the wrangka as a lying lion with the ukiran in the shape of a woman or man
It means that this sangkuh was used for "tourist"-trading purposes with the dutch soldiers during that period.

[VVV]

Henk,

Thanks for your comments. That's what I suspected and was hesitant to keep this at first when I got it together with the other weapons I really wanted.
But still it was the first Sangkuh I have seen and somehow I found it interesting without knowing what it was.
Maybe it was made as a special order for a Dutch soldier?

Michael

[Henk]

Originally Posted by VVV

Maybe it was made as a special order for a Dutch soldier?

Yes Michael, that is very good possible. Or it was "a special offer for you my friend. No keris but a special offer for little money"

[asomotif]

Hello,

I have an indonesian spear with this triangular shape point.
Looks a lot like this knife, but longer and of course not with a square tang, but a round one.
I will post some pictures once I have made them.

As for this dagger, the markings and square tang are not very javanese or ethnic. But the forging looks very ethnic.
Nice dagger anyway regardless the history.

Best wishes for 2007

Willem

[Tim Simmons]

looking at this thread again has made me examine this dagger more closely. Okay it is African, but many of the Mahdist weapons were modeled on Persian forms. When I first post a picture of this a member said they had a Persian example. I wonder if these all relate to common origin? Looking at the blade there is a round bar tang forged from the forte as in the drawing. I am now of the opinion that this is not a converted bayonet. I do not think the guard is important in relation to the blade. To me there seems clear links in form and decorative methods that are more than coincidental. Any opinions?

[asomotif]

Dear All,

Here are the pictures of the spear I have.
Open for comments.

[Alam Shah]

Asomotif,

Your tombak does looks like a sangkuh, with a well-defined metuk.
The spear mounting looks proper, from my untrained eyes.

[asomotif]

Thank you for the information.
The spearmounting is indeed firm and must be the original one.
Best regards,
Willem