Curved Flyssa in St-Petersburg museum...Ariel, Jim, Ham...somebody please explain!!!

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ham

Ariel, back up cautiously, mind your way-- that limb had already snapped with a mighty crunch under the weight of the St. Pete curators' description before you got (far) out on it.
Slight curvature in normally straight blades, or the reverse, need not alarm the good souls of the forum... these are simple variants which indicate the preference of the owner-- perhaps he preferred the drawcut. This particular weapon is unquestionably and entirely attributable (and as a flyssa, naught else) despite its seeming scoliosis-- no doubt imparted by the fall. Perhaps the curator landed on't.

Ham

Thanks for gentle warning.
My first, second and nth thought about this St. Pete's sword is that the curators goofed in attributing it to C. Asia. The curvature doesn't deter me from attributing it first and foremost to N. Africa. Up to here it is simple.
My ( imaginary) trip along the limb was, in a way, a question: does anybody know of any C. Asian sword similar to this one?
Should we ask Borat?

[katana]

I totally agree with Ham.....I...personally... would prefer to have a curved blade if I had to use a Flyssa in battle.....it gives a different dimension to its functionality. In fact, I am surprise that there are not alot more with this form of blade.....if nothing else... it gives the Flyssa a more 'graceful' look.

[Emanuel]

Thanks for the confirmation Ham. It's good to know that these variants existed. It challenges the idea of the flyssa as an estoc weapon though, it may heat up discussions again about how it was used....maybe in favour of a cavalry weapon?

[ham]

The full-length flyssa is a cavalry weapon, whether straight or curved.
I suspect this one was made for someone who preferred the sabre form, probably trained outside the region... and while a myriad possibilities explaining the owner's reasons for this particular preference exist, it remains that the weapon itself must have been an effective one in his hands.

Ham

[Emanuel]

It does indeed look quite deadly/effective. Ham, may I assume you've encountered these variants before? If so, how frequently would you guess they occur amongst the long variety?
A "Report from Tlemcen" would definitely be called for at some point.

Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

These are some good rants you guys!!! And an extremely interesting flyssa variant Emanuel! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that gets sleepless over these anomolies.
Ariel, I'd never take you to to task especially not on the neverending BSY/flyssa saga...after all it was you that found the definitive proof of the
transcaucasian/Turkish origins of these unusual swords.

We know that there have been considerable variations seen in swords that have appeared in the North African sphere, with most of the flyssa instances being with the range in size. It does not seem unlikely that a variant with curved shamshir type blade would be out of place, though extremely unusual. As has been noted, the flyssa was a cavalry weapon, though the dynamics of its use in combat have not, as far as I know, ever been described. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever translated narratives or documention from French forces who fought in Saharan regions and encountered warriors with these swords. As noted, although the estoc type thrust must have been the primary technique, but quite possibly this example suggests a sabre preference for the drawcut, yet maintaining the traditional flyssa decorative style.

The influences of weapons from the Caucusus and Central Asia are actually well established in North Africa, especially via the Ottomans and thier mercenary forces. I have often considered the possible influence of mail piercing blades of Tatar sabres and Caucasian kindjhals on the needle point that became key to the flyssa, and of course the BSY .

Best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hi Jim,

I'd certainly love to get a final, documented answer on these swords. I wonder whether Ottoman records or paintings/graphic records could shed some light on the wear of flyssa during their rule. As I understand it though, they sort of kept away from the the "Kabylie" region in north-eastern Algeria...I could be wrong, I'll check up on history.

I've been trying to find someone with access to Foreign Legion archives. I found out that the public may indeed gain access to them, but one needs to be on-site to use them...little I can do from Toronto I'm afraid. Will keep trying nonetheless.

David, I think the wavy shamshir blade would act pretty much like a saw blade, so it may impede a swift draw-cut. Look at Valjhun's avatar, he's got a similar tulawar...there was a discussion on it some time ago.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Yup, read some more about Algerian, and particularly Kabyle history...it seems that "Grande Kabylie" where such tribes as the Ifflyssen were settled was ruled by the berber Belkadi dinasty until the mid-18th century, and fiercely protected from Ottoman pachas, aghas and later deys governing the rest of the country from Algiers. The source for this little bit of history comes from http://www.chez.com/maghreb2000/
but I will try to confirm this from a good academic source.

If Ottomans had little control and influence in Kabyle territory, how would the ottoman yataghan have left such a mark on kabyles? Could trade alone account for this?
I wonder what other weapons kabyles used when facing yeniceri troups.

Hmm...hope I don't stirr too great of a hornet's nest...or too little

Emanuel