Curved Flyssa in St-Petersburg museum...Ariel, Jim, Ham...somebody please explain!!!

ham · 20th December 2006, 05:00 AM

Ariel, back up cautiously, mind your way-- that limb had already snapped with a mighty crunch under the weight of the St. Pete curators' description before you got (far) out on it.
Slight curvature in normally straight blades, or the reverse, need not alarm the good souls of the forum... these are simple variants which indicate the preference of the owner-- perhaps he preferred the drawcut. This particular weapon is unquestionably and entirely attributable (and as a flyssa, naught else) despite its seeming scoliosis-- no doubt imparted by the fall. Perhaps the curator landed on't.

Ham

ariel · 20th December 2006, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Ariel, back up cautiously, mind your way-- that limb had already snapped with a mighty crunch under the weight of the St. Pete curators' description before you got (far) out on it.
Slight curvature in normally straight blades, or the reverse, need not alarm the good souls of the forum... these are simple variants which indicate the preference of the owner-- perhaps he preferred the drawcut. This particular weapon is unquestionably and entirely attributable (and as a flyssa, naught else) despite its seeming scoliosis-- no doubt imparted by the fall. Perhaps the curator landed on't.

Ham

Thanks for gentle warning.
My first, second and nth thought about this St. Pete's sword is that the curators goofed in attributing it to C. Asia. The curvature doesn't deter me from attributing it first and foremost to N. Africa. Up to here it is simple.
My ( imaginary) trip along the limb was, in a way, a question: does anybody know of any C. Asian sword similar to this one?
Should we ask Borat?

katana · 20th December 2006, 12:51 PM

I totally agree with Ham.....I...personally... would prefer to have a curved blade if I had to use a Flyssa in battle.....it gives a different dimension to its functionality. In fact, I am surprise that there are not alot more with this form of blade.....if nothing else... it gives the Flyssa a more 'graceful' look.

Emanuel · 20th December 2006, 02:48 PM

Thanks for the confirmation Ham. It's good to know that these variants existed. It challenges the idea of the flyssa as an estoc weapon though, it may heat up discussions again about how it was used....maybe in favour of a cavalry weapon?

ham · 20th December 2006, 11:45 PM

The full-length flyssa is a cavalry weapon, whether straight or curved.
I suspect this one was made for someone who preferred the sabre form, probably trained outside the region... and while a myriad possibilities explaining the owner's reasons for this particular preference exist, it remains that the weapon itself must have been an effective one in his hands.

Ham

Emanuel · 21st December 2006, 02:31 AM

It does indeed look quite deadly/effective. Ham, may I assume you've encountered these variants before? If so, how frequently would you guess they occur amongst the long variety?
A "Report from Tlemcen" would definitely be called for at some point.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2006, 02:35 AM

These are some good rants you guys!!!

And an extremely interesting flyssa variant Emanuel! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that gets sleepless over these anomolies.
Ariel, I'd never take you to to task

especially not on the neverending BSY/flyssa saga...after all it was you that found the definitive proof of the
transcaucasian/Turkish origins of these unusual swords.

We know that there have been considerable variations seen in swords that have appeared in the North African sphere, with most of the flyssa instances being with the range in size. It does not seem unlikely that a variant with curved shamshir type blade would be out of place, though extremely unusual. As has been noted, the flyssa was a cavalry weapon, though the dynamics of its use in combat have not, as far as I know, ever been described. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever translated narratives or documention from French forces who fought in Saharan regions and encountered warriors with these swords. As noted, although the estoc type thrust must have been the primary technique, but quite possibly this example suggests a sabre preference for the drawcut, yet maintaining the traditional flyssa decorative style.

The influences of weapons from the Caucusus and Central Asia are actually well established in North Africa, especially via the Ottomans and thier mercenary forces. I have often considered the possible influence of mail piercing blades of Tatar sabres and Caucasian kindjhals on the needle point that became key to the flyssa, and of course the BSY

.

Best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 21st December 2006, 08:51 PM

Hi Jim,

I'd certainly love to get a final, documented answer on these swords. I wonder whether Ottoman records or paintings/graphic records could shed some light on the wear of flyssa during their rule. As I understand it though, they sort of kept away from the the "Kabylie" region in north-eastern Algeria...I could be wrong, I'll check up on history.

I've been trying to find someone with access to Foreign Legion archives. I found out that the public may indeed gain access to them, but one needs to be on-site to use them...little I can do from Toronto I'm afraid. Will keep trying nonetheless.

David, I think the wavy shamshir blade would act pretty much like a saw blade, so it may impede a swift draw-cut. Look at Valjhun's avatar, he's got a similar tulawar...there was a discussion on it some time ago.

Regards,
Emanuel

21st December 2006, 02:31 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	It does indeed look quite deadly/effective. Ham, may I assume you've encountered these variants before? If so, how frequently would you guess they occur amongst the long variety? A "Report from Tlemcen" would definitely be called for at some point. Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 21st December 2006 at 02:51 AM. Reason: ...more likely Annaba than Tlemcen...

20th December 2006, 05:00 AM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Ariel, back up cautiously, mind your way-- that limb had already snapped with a mighty crunch under the weight of the St. Pete curators' description before you got (far) out on it. Slight curvature in normally straight blades, or the reverse, need not alarm the good souls of the forum... these are simple variants which indicate the preference of the owner-- perhaps he preferred the drawcut. This particular weapon is unquestionably and entirely attributable (and as a flyssa, naught else) despite its seeming scoliosis-- no doubt imparted by the fall. Perhaps the curator landed on't. Ham

20th December 2006, 12:51 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I totally agree with Ham.....I...personally... would prefer to have a curved blade if I had to use a Flyssa in battle.....it gives a different dimension to its functionality. In fact, I am surprise that there are not alot more with this form of blade.....if nothing else... it gives the Flyssa a more 'graceful' look.

20th December 2006, 02:48 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the confirmation Ham. It's good to know that these variants existed. It challenges the idea of the flyssa as an estoc weapon though, it may heat up discussions again about how it was used....maybe in favour of a cavalry weapon?

20th December 2006, 11:45 PM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	The full-length flyssa is a cavalry weapon, whether straight or curved. I suspect this one was made for someone who preferred the sabre form, probably trained outside the region... and while a myriad possibilities explaining the owner's reasons for this particular preference exist, it remains that the weapon itself must have been an effective one in his hands. Ham

21st December 2006, 02:35 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	These are some good rants you guys!!! And an extremely interesting flyssa variant Emanuel! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that gets sleepless over these anomolies. Ariel, I'd never take you to to task especially not on the neverending BSY/flyssa saga...after all it was you that found the definitive proof of the transcaucasian/Turkish origins of these unusual swords. We know that there have been considerable variations seen in swords that have appeared in the North African sphere, with most of the flyssa instances being with the range in size. It does not seem unlikely that a variant with curved shamshir type blade would be out of place, though extremely unusual. As has been noted, the flyssa was a cavalry weapon, though the dynamics of its use in combat have not, as far as I know, ever been described. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever translated narratives or documention from French forces who fought in Saharan regions and encountered warriors with these swords. As noted, although the estoc type thrust must have been the primary technique, but quite possibly this example suggests a sabre preference for the drawcut, yet maintaining the traditional flyssa decorative style. The influences of weapons from the Caucusus and Central Asia are actually well established in North Africa, especially via the Ottomans and thier mercenary forces. I have often considered the possible influence of mail piercing blades of Tatar sabres and Caucasian kindjhals on the needle point that became key to the flyssa, and of course the BSY . Best regards, Jim

21st December 2006, 08:51 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim, I'd certainly love to get a final, documented answer on these swords. I wonder whether Ottoman records or paintings/graphic records could shed some light on the wear of flyssa during their rule. As I understand it though, they sort of kept away from the the "Kabylie" region in north-eastern Algeria...I could be wrong, I'll check up on history. I've been trying to find someone with access to Foreign Legion archives. I found out that the public may indeed gain access to them, but one needs to be on-site to use them...little I can do from Toronto I'm afraid. Will keep trying nonetheless. David, I think the wavy shamshir blade would act pretty much like a saw blade, so it may impede a swift draw-cut. Look at Valjhun's avatar, he's got a similar tulawar...there was a discussion on it some time ago. Regards, Emanuel