European Executioner Sword

Philip · 13th December 2006, 10:04 PM

Henk,
A block is used only with the ax. In all cultures that I know of that used a sword or saber for decapitation, no block was necessary. As I have noted, a horizontal cut was used generally in Europe, the Near East, Siam, and sometimes in Vietnam, and the victim was kneeling with torso upright. When the vertical cut was used, the victim was made to kneel or stand in a bent-over position; a cord was attached below the ears and an assistant pulled to keep the neck stationary and extended (in pre-revolutionary China, the mandatory queue was used in lieu of the rope).

Henk · 14th December 2006, 08:23 PM

Philip,

You are right. A chopping blok for a sword would damage the edge. I looked to some pictures of the beheading of some famous dutch persons and found drawings of men kneeling with the torso upright but a little bend forward. I don't see a rope pulled by an assistant. But the artist could have left the assistant and the rope. Or our dutch nobles went with pride.

Philip · 14th December 2006, 11:47 PM

Henk,
Sorry, the verbiage in my post FAILED to keep the beasties apart (and to provide enough detail), and I see that you got confused. Let's try again.

HORIZONTAL CUT : primarily used in Europe, also in Siam, Arabia, and sometimes Vietnam. Victim is kneeling with torso (and head) upright, or nearly so. The position is easy for the victim to maintain with some degree of steadiness (though he/she is probably scared witless), and because of the arc of the cut, you can't have an assistant standing there if you don't want to deal with excessive employee turnover. The headsman swings the sword/saber horizontally, and the job is done. The Arab executioner often gives the victim a little poke in the side with the tip of the shamshir to get him to stiffen up straight, and then cuts immediately.

VERTICAL CUT: typically used in China, often in Vietnam and other oriental countries. Victim stands, bent over with torso/neck horizontal, or else kneels with head extending forward. It is more awkward for the victim (but nobody seemed to care about that!), and here is where the assistant and the looped cord around the ears comes into play. The idea is to keep neck extended and steady to receive a downward blow (in ax-using Euro. countries, the block served the same purpose).

Additional info:

The Japanese seemed to favor 45 degrees downward on a kneeling prisoner, based on some WW II photos that I saw of American and Australian POWs about to be executed by officers with katanas.

By the way, most of the info I have provided above comes from period engravings and photos, ranging from 16th cent. Germany to Qing illustrations to 19th cent. photos taken by western visitors to various Oriental countries.

S.Al-Anizi · 15th December 2006, 10:48 AM

Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.

Philip · 15th December 2006, 08:30 PM

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was horizontal, as explained once on an American TV documentary, and also per an artist's sketch that accompanied a newspaper article. Well, I guess those folks got it wrong, and I appreciate your correction.

fernando · 16th December 2006, 01:37 PM

In the most dramatic execution event of modern era in Portugal ( XVIII century ), some ten individuals belonging to three different noble houses, supposedly opposing the King, were publicly sacrificed at the scaffold, all in the same session, each of them in a different indescribable manner. The only one who was sentenced with a "simple" process, was the Marchioness of Tavora, the first one to be executed, as to save her from the scene of the others being meticulously tortured to death.
All sources mention that she was sitting on a bench. Some even say she was tyed to it by her waist, hands cuffed, head standing up. The beheading stroke was horizontal, given by the back. One only stroke, according to witnesses. There is some undefinition about the instrument. Some say with a cutlass, but the instructions were to use a great sword or a bullfighting sword (?), previously stored for the purpose.
fernando

fenlander · 16th December 2006, 03:52 PM

Being a lay man i was never quite sure what you meant by a horizontal be-heading. This is because i had always presumed that the victim would bow their head. I take it that you mean by this, that the victim was standing with the neck vertically when the sentence was carried out ? I had to think about what was meant by a "horizontal be-heading" for quite a while. In the TV series "Henry the VIII" I thought that Anne Bolien had her head down when it was time.
Can't believe you experts got me thinking for so long about what a horizontal executioners stroke was !

p.s.
i've never worked out if there is a spell checker on this forum. Does it exist ?

ariel · 23rd December 2006, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.

Then, why does the professional Saudi Arabian executioner describes horizontal cuts?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3709

fenlander · 24th December 2006, 10:42 AM

Phillip is correct i think. As I also heard that the executioner in Saudi Arabia uses vertical cuts not horizontal. The prisoner is asked to kneel and bow their heads. Then the stroke is vertical not horizontal. One source backs that claim up, and I think Amnesty international would b reliable in these matters.
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/...riefing/8.html

S.Al-Anizi · 24th December 2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Then, why does the professional Saudi Arabian executioner describes horizontal cuts?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3709

I really do not know what the executioner means by using horizontal cuts, and for what, but Ive talked to people who have witnessed executions in Riyadh, and from many photos you can find on the internet, clearly, vertical, not horizontal cuts, are used.

Philip · 25th December 2006, 02:26 AM

I appreciate again your vast historical knowledge, here in the States we cannot get many books on Portugurse history so we are at a disadvantage. The info you provide indicates that the fellow at the I.D.E.S. who told me about the non-killing of bulls in Portugal may have had some dates and facts wrong. outra vez, obrigado!

I don't want to discuss the tourada/corrida further on this thread because taurine sport is off topic in this context, but if you have pics of the old Portuguese bullfighting sword, could you START A NEW THREAD to share this little-known info with us all? Maybe you can post a pic of your Spanish style "estoc" side by side for comparison purposes.

13th December 2006, 10:04 PM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	chopping block Henk, A block is used only with the ax. In all cultures that I know of that used a sword or saber for decapitation, no block was necessary. As I have noted, a horizontal cut was used generally in Europe, the Near East, Siam, and sometimes in Vietnam, and the victim was kneeling with torso upright. When the vertical cut was used, the victim was made to kneel or stand in a bent-over position; a cord was attached below the ears and an assistant pulled to keep the neck stationary and extended (in pre-revolutionary China, the mandatory queue was used in lieu of the rope).

14th December 2006, 11:47 PM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	separating sheep from goats Henk, Sorry, the verbiage in my post FAILED to keep the beasties apart (and to provide enough detail), and I see that you got confused. Let's try again. HORIZONTAL CUT : primarily used in Europe, also in Siam, Arabia, and sometimes Vietnam. Victim is kneeling with torso (and head) upright, or nearly so. The position is easy for the victim to maintain with some degree of steadiness (though he/she is probably scared witless), and because of the arc of the cut, you can't have an assistant standing there if you don't want to deal with excessive employee turnover. The headsman swings the sword/saber horizontally, and the job is done. The Arab executioner often gives the victim a little poke in the side with the tip of the shamshir to get him to stiffen up straight, and then cuts immediately. VERTICAL CUT: typically used in China, often in Vietnam and other oriental countries. Victim stands, bent over with torso/neck horizontal, or else kneels with head extending forward. It is more awkward for the victim (but nobody seemed to care about that!), and here is where the assistant and the looped cord around the ears comes into play. The idea is to keep neck extended and steady to receive a downward blow (in ax-using Euro. countries, the block served the same purpose). Additional info: The Japanese seemed to favor 45 degrees downward on a kneeling prisoner, based on some WW II photos that I saw of American and Australian POWs about to be executed by officers with katanas. By the way, most of the info I have provided above comes from period engravings and photos, ranging from 16th cent. Germany to Qing illustrations to 19th cent. photos taken by western visitors to various Oriental countries.

15th December 2006, 08:30 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Arabia Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was horizontal, as explained once on an American TV documentary, and also per an artist's sketch that accompanied a newspaper article. Well, I guess those folks got it wrong, and I appreciate your correction.

16th December 2006, 01:37 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In the most dramatic execution event of modern era in Portugal ( XVIII century ), some ten individuals belonging to three different noble houses, supposedly opposing the King, were publicly sacrificed at the scaffold, all in the same session, each of them in a different indescribable manner. The only one who was sentenced with a "simple" process, was the Marchioness of Tavora, the first one to be executed, as to save her from the scene of the others being meticulously tortured to death. All sources mention that she was sitting on a bench. Some even say she was tyed to it by her waist, hands cuffed, head standing up. The beheading stroke was horizontal, given by the back. One only stroke, according to witnesses. There is some undefinition about the instrument. Some say with a cutlass, but the instructions were to use a great sword or a bullfighting sword (?), previously stored for the purpose. fernando Last edited by fernando; 16th December 2006 at 08:08 PM.

16th December 2006, 03:52 PM	#7
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	wow i never realised ! Being a lay man i was never quite sure what you meant by a horizontal be-heading. This is because i had always presumed that the victim would bow their head. I take it that you mean by this, that the victim was standing with the neck vertically when the sentence was carried out ? I had to think about what was meant by a "horizontal be-heading" for quite a while. In the TV series "Henry the VIII" I thought that Anne Bolien had her head down when it was time. Can't believe you experts got me thinking for so long about what a horizontal executioners stroke was ! p.s. i've never worked out if there is a spell checker on this forum. Does it exist ?

14th December 2006, 08:23 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Philip, You are right. A chopping blok for a sword would damage the edge. I looked to some pictures of the beheading of some famous dutch persons and found drawings of men kneeling with the torso upright but a little bend forward. I don't see a rope pulled by an assistant. But the artist could have left the assistant and the rope. Or our dutch nobles went with pride.

15th December 2006, 10:48 AM	#4
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Just a note to Philip, in Arabia, executioners perform vertical, not horizontal cut. The victim would be sitting on his knees, the headsman would jab him in the back with the tip of his saif, then off goes his head.

24th December 2006, 10:42 AM	#9
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	vertical cuts Phillip is correct i think. As I also heard that the executioner in Saudi Arabia uses vertical cuts not horizontal. The prisoner is asked to kneel and bow their heads. Then the stroke is vertical not horizontal. One source backs that claim up, and I think Amnesty international would b reliable in these matters. http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/...riefing/8.html

25th December 2006, 02:26 AM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Thanks, Fernando! I appreciate again your vast historical knowledge, here in the States we cannot get many books on Portugurse history so we are at a disadvantage. The info you provide indicates that the fellow at the I.D.E.S. who told me about the non-killing of bulls in Portugal may have had some dates and facts wrong. outra vez, obrigado! I don't want to discuss the tourada/corrida further on this thread because taurine sport is off topic in this context, but if you have pics of the old Portuguese bullfighting sword, could you START A NEW THREAD to share this little-known info with us all? Maybe you can post a pic of your Spanish style "estoc" side by side for comparison purposes.