European Executioner Sword

Philip · 11th December 2006, 09:09 PM

Jim, you brought up an interesting point that may touch upon etymology...

I think that there is no doubt what the Euro. swords that we've been discussing were used for. So many of the German examples are engraved with motifs including the gallows, wheel, and simple verses dealing with justice and mercy. I've seen others with Latin inscriptions of a quasi-religious nature, these may be Bohemian or perhaps Polish.

I think that the "bearing" sword that you mention is another breed of cat -- a larger two hander (often of impressive size though not constructed in a particularly wieldable manner), and with a pointed tip. Museums in Europe are full of these things, I saw a gigantic example in the Museum of Scotland that was big enough to whack the head off a hippopotamous if (1) it had been sharp (2) if its blade and tang were sturdily constructed, and (3) if Paul Bunyan could be hired to swing it! (OK, I better shuddup now, I don't want the folks at PETA or the Animal Liberation Front after my hide for that last remark

)

Montino Bourbon · 12th December 2006, 06:34 PM

By the fact that this is treated as a 'macabre topic'. Hey, that's what swords are for! Execution, combat, it's all the same... hitting a human (mostly) with a sharp piece of metal in the hope of causing injury or speedy demise.

Naturally, we 'civilized' gentlemen (And ladies, should there be any present; I'm an equal-opportunity sort of guy) would prefer to not hurt others; and even though I'm a Vietnam-era veteran I've (Thank God) never had the need to kill or even injure anybody with any weapon. I'm all too well aware that a good sword is, in its final analysis, a good killing tool, and I actually was amused by the video of the Saudi executioner talking calmly about having breakfast before going out to 'do the job', just another day's work!

It's true; historical weapons had an enormous amount of care and art lavished on them, probably because they were responsible for preserving their owner's life. And I have to admit that I have been fascinated by ethnographic and historical weapons for years. I'm also well aware of the nature of weapons. I also happen to be a pacifist.

This is a discussion that is rife with very interesting material. I wish that we could have participants from a few centuries before ours.

katana · 12th December 2006, 08:15 PM

A very interesting thread....with excellent input from 'the usual suspects'....thankyou for this absorbing discussion ...unfortunately I have nothing to add.. about the use of swords.... the axe was , I believe, more commonly used in Britain. It's heavier weight and its balance nearer the head usually ensured that only one blow was required.

Henk · 12th December 2006, 09:11 PM

Emanuel,

This summer I visited here in Holland the most well known prison that we have here. Just as a tourist for an afternoon and not for a stay for a few months

This prison called Veenhuizen was a community where prisoners lived with and worked for the villagers of Veenhuizen. I visited the museum which had an exposition about punishment for criminals from the middleages till the present. Exposed where among many artefacts two execution swords dated around 15-1600. Used here in the Netherlands.
Just a broad flat double edged sword, just like a mediaeval knight sword. The tip was square, nothing special.

Emanuel · 12th December 2006, 10:37 PM

Hi all,

Thanks for the great responses to this therad! So basically, a European headman's sword is purposely-made quite differently from a fighting sword. Weight increased towards the tip, long handle for two-handed grip, and lenticular blade profile. Why would the blade be specifically lenticular as opposed to lozenge-shaped? Would this simply be a continuation from fighting swords that happened to be lens-shaped before being used for executions, or was it a specific element desired for beheading?

I guess beheading by a sword would have been appealing to the nobility as it would still be considered "death by sword" as opposed to execution as a common criminal....perhaps it maintained some modicum of honour.

Another thought...the executioner's proficiency with the "tool of his trade" would have made him a most formidable opponent of the field no?

What I find remarkable is that this form of execution is retained in so many countries today. I take it that the sword as a symbol of authority is still very strong. Do any western countries besides the US still have capital punishment? This brings to mind a point about popular view of execution, but I better refrain from getting into it here.

Henk, did you get the chance to handle the sword at the prison? You see, it's the shape of it that is still a curiosity to me...the fact that it has that darn square tip that I've never seen on a blade...this is why I mentioned the dao, kora and also the spatula-tip dha...it's so interesting-looking in spite of its use.
Since the blades have no tip, why do they still get narrower further up? Is it just a weight-saving device or simply a leftover from the time when the blade actually needed the narrowing point for thrusting?

I will look for the accounts of the Sanson family and that of Sutton...

Emanuel

Philip · 12th December 2006, 11:59 PM

Manolo
To answer your questions about the shape of these blades (BTW, the Dutch examples described by Henk seem to resemble the Germanic type very closely in their essentials).

I think the lenticular section was intended to minimize resistance as the blade cut through the neck. The pointed central ridge on a conventional lozenge-sectioned blade would create more resistance. Such a ridge would be desireable on a fighting sword, since it would thicken and thus reinforce the center of the blade. Blades do get whacked on the flat side during combat, so more strength in this area is necessary. Au contraire, a beheading sword is swung in one direction, and there isn't the element of stress from an opponent's weapon striking it laterally.

I've also seen a lenticular cross section applied to some single-edged blades from China and northern Burma. These are the falchions or straight dhas which widen towards the obtusely-clipped tips. On several of these, the spine thins out markedly from midpoint on, so that at the extremity, the cross section is like a lens, albeit with only one side really sharp. I think that this was deliberate feature put in to reduce resistance on the cut.

Practically all of the "Germanic" headsman's swords I have seen don't have a contour taper -- they remain wide all the way to the end. Some are slightly wasp waisted, narrowing slightly ahead of the forte and then widening a bit further out. That may be due to the effects of repeated sharpening.

***
In those European countries in which the sword was used for judicial decapitation, it was a generally reserved for the upper classes because the sword was associated with the nobility (indeed, the headsman's sword retains the cruciform guard of the medieval knight's sword, even though it would function just as well without any guard at all). Commoners were often executed by ax, or more often, by hanging or by even more ghastly methods such as breaking on the wheel (most of Western Europe) and impaling (parts of Eastern Europe, mainly Hungary, Poland, Ukraine).

It's interesting to note that the guillotine became the standard capital sentence in France after the Revolution not only because it was quick, efficient, and reduced the margin of error that even the most skilled swordsmen were subject to, BUT ALSO because it represented a "levelling" of society -- all citizens, if condemned to die, were entitled to this "more humane" (in the eyes of its proponents) method, REGARDLESS OF SOCIAL CLASS. No more would bluebloods enjoy the "privilege" of dying by the sword while commoners had their necks wrung or bones broken like mongrel dogs.

Emanuel · 13th December 2006, 02:55 AM

Thanks for the clarifications Philip!

This thread has put this type of sword in context for me. I am not planning on buying any such thing any time soon - staying away from European/Mediaeval until I have the money and knowledge/wisdom to get good pieces.

There're a few prison I can visit here in Toronto/Canada, but I doubt any implements of execution exist anymore...cap.pun. was abolished a good while ago.

The level of skill the headman needed to cut the neck cleanly in a horizontal swipe is amazing...I imagine it quite hard not to nick the shoulders or the jaw
Actually - and I apologize for sticking to this distasteful matter - I recall a picture/print of African Ngombe executions with their executioner blades...the "victim?" was seated and a roap mechanism pulled the head upward to expose the neck. Gruesome but makes the point.

Right, enough of that from me, many thanks.
Emanuel

11th December 2006, 09:09 PM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	"heading" or "bearing" Jim, you brought up an interesting point that may touch upon etymology... I think that there is no doubt what the Euro. swords that we've been discussing were used for. So many of the German examples are engraved with motifs including the gallows, wheel, and simple verses dealing with justice and mercy. I've seen others with Latin inscriptions of a quasi-religious nature, these may be Bohemian or perhaps Polish. I think that the "bearing" sword that you mention is another breed of cat -- a larger two hander (often of impressive size though not constructed in a particularly wieldable manner), and with a pointed tip. Museums in Europe are full of these things, I saw a gigantic example in the Museum of Scotland that was big enough to whack the head off a hippopotamous if (1) it had been sharp (2) if its blade and tang were sturdily constructed, and (3) if Paul Bunyan could be hired to swing it! (OK, I better shuddup now, I don't want the folks at PETA or the Animal Liberation Front after my hide for that last remark )

12th December 2006, 06:34 PM	#2
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I'm somewhat mystified... By the fact that this is treated as a 'macabre topic'. Hey, that's what swords are for! Execution, combat, it's all the same... hitting a human (mostly) with a sharp piece of metal in the hope of causing injury or speedy demise. Naturally, we 'civilized' gentlemen (And ladies, should there be any present; I'm an equal-opportunity sort of guy) would prefer to not hurt others; and even though I'm a Vietnam-era veteran I've (Thank God) never had the need to kill or even injure anybody with any weapon. I'm all too well aware that a good sword is, in its final analysis, a good killing tool, and I actually was amused by the video of the Saudi executioner talking calmly about having breakfast before going out to 'do the job', just another day's work! It's true; historical weapons had an enormous amount of care and art lavished on them, probably because they were responsible for preserving their owner's life. And I have to admit that I have been fascinated by ethnographic and historical weapons for years. I'm also well aware of the nature of weapons. I also happen to be a pacifist. This is a discussion that is rife with very interesting material. I wish that we could have participants from a few centuries before ours.

12th December 2006, 11:59 PM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	contour/section of headsman's sword ; class considerations Manolo To answer your questions about the shape of these blades (BTW, the Dutch examples described by Henk seem to resemble the Germanic type very closely in their essentials). I think the lenticular section was intended to minimize resistance as the blade cut through the neck. The pointed central ridge on a conventional lozenge-sectioned blade would create more resistance. Such a ridge would be desireable on a fighting sword, since it would thicken and thus reinforce the center of the blade. Blades do get whacked on the flat side during combat, so more strength in this area is necessary. Au contraire, a beheading sword is swung in one direction, and there isn't the element of stress from an opponent's weapon striking it laterally. I've also seen a lenticular cross section applied to some single-edged blades from China and northern Burma. These are the falchions or straight dhas which widen towards the obtusely-clipped tips. On several of these, the spine thins out markedly from midpoint on, so that at the extremity, the cross section is like a lens, albeit with only one side really sharp. I think that this was deliberate feature put in to reduce resistance on the cut. Practically all of the "Germanic" headsman's swords I have seen don't have a contour taper -- they remain wide all the way to the end. Some are slightly wasp waisted, narrowing slightly ahead of the forte and then widening a bit further out. That may be due to the effects of repeated sharpening. *** In those European countries in which the sword was used for judicial decapitation, it was a generally reserved for the upper classes because the sword was associated with the nobility (indeed, the headsman's sword retains the cruciform guard of the medieval knight's sword, even though it would function just as well without any guard at all). Commoners were often executed by ax, or more often, by hanging or by even more ghastly methods such as breaking on the wheel (most of Western Europe) and impaling (parts of Eastern Europe, mainly Hungary, Poland, Ukraine). It's interesting to note that the guillotine became the standard capital sentence in France after the Revolution not only because it was quick, efficient, and reduced the margin of error that even the most skilled swordsmen were subject to, BUT ALSO because it represented a "levelling" of society -- all citizens, if condemned to die, were entitled to this "more humane" (in the eyes of its proponents) method, REGARDLESS OF SOCIAL CLASS. No more would bluebloods enjoy the "privilege" of dying by the sword while commoners had their necks wrung or bones broken like mongrel dogs.

12th December 2006, 08:15 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	A very interesting thread....with excellent input from 'the usual suspects'....thankyou for this absorbing discussion ...unfortunately I have nothing to add.. about the use of swords.... the axe was , I believe, more commonly used in Britain. It's heavier weight and its balance nearer the head usually ensured that only one blow was required.

12th December 2006, 09:11 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Emanuel, This summer I visited here in Holland the most well known prison that we have here. Just as a tourist for an afternoon and not for a stay for a few months This prison called Veenhuizen was a community where prisoners lived with and worked for the villagers of Veenhuizen. I visited the museum which had an exposition about punishment for criminals from the middleages till the present. Exposed where among many artefacts two execution swords dated around 15-1600. Used here in the Netherlands. Just a broad flat double edged sword, just like a mediaeval knight sword. The tip was square, nothing special.

12th December 2006, 10:37 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi all, Thanks for the great responses to this therad! So basically, a European headman's sword is purposely-made quite differently from a fighting sword. Weight increased towards the tip, long handle for two-handed grip, and lenticular blade profile. Why would the blade be specifically lenticular as opposed to lozenge-shaped? Would this simply be a continuation from fighting swords that happened to be lens-shaped before being used for executions, or was it a specific element desired for beheading? I guess beheading by a sword would have been appealing to the nobility as it would still be considered "death by sword" as opposed to execution as a common criminal....perhaps it maintained some modicum of honour. Another thought...the executioner's proficiency with the "tool of his trade" would have made him a most formidable opponent of the field no? What I find remarkable is that this form of execution is retained in so many countries today. I take it that the sword as a symbol of authority is still very strong. Do any western countries besides the US still have capital punishment? This brings to mind a point about popular view of execution, but I better refrain from getting into it here. Henk, did you get the chance to handle the sword at the prison? You see, it's the shape of it that is still a curiosity to me...the fact that it has that darn square tip that I've never seen on a blade...this is why I mentioned the dao, kora and also the spatula-tip dha...it's so interesting-looking in spite of its use. Since the blades have no tip, why do they still get narrower further up? Is it just a weight-saving device or simply a leftover from the time when the blade actually needed the narrowing point for thrusting? I will look for the accounts of the Sanson family and that of Sutton... Emanuel

13th December 2006, 02:55 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the clarifications Philip! This thread has put this type of sword in context for me. I am not planning on buying any such thing any time soon - staying away from European/Mediaeval until I have the money and knowledge/wisdom to get good pieces. There're a few prison I can visit here in Toronto/Canada, but I doubt any implements of execution exist anymore...cap.pun. was abolished a good while ago. The level of skill the headman needed to cut the neck cleanly in a horizontal swipe is amazing...I imagine it quite hard not to nick the shoulders or the jaw Actually - and I apologize for sticking to this distasteful matter - I recall a picture/print of African Ngombe executions with their executioner blades...the "victim?" was seated and a roap mechanism pulled the head upward to expose the neck. Gruesome but makes the point. Right, enough of that from me, many thanks. Emanuel