Comments/Opinions on keris singa barong

BluErf · 11th December 2006, 02:36 PM

Hey, my avatar's gone missing!!

BluErf · 11th December 2006, 02:45 PM

Here's my other singa barong, from Palembang. I'm pretty sure this was not messed with and is an old singa barong. I couldn't see any forge lines flowing from the singa to the blade though. The grain flows from the nose, down the body to the rump.

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2006, 08:44 PM

Could it have been made that way in the first place?

Anything is possible.

I have the couple of blades I have already mentioned, but I also have a Bali blade where the head part of the naga has been put in place after the blade was forged. I do not know if this is a later addition, or was done when the blade was made, but close examination of material and style seems to indicate it might have been done at the time of making the blade.

From what I have been told, and what I myself have observed, the "improvement" of older blades has been going on for a very, very long time. It would seem that in times past there were a lot of very big Tuban blades available in Jawa. These blades used to sell at very good prices, and were in high demand.

Why?

Because they were perfect for alteration to various other forms of blade that could be sold for multiples of the original cost. They were so big that a length could be cut from the tip and welded onto the gandik, thus giving sufficient thickness to allow a naga's head or a singo barong to be carved.The material was the same:- not so easy to pick that it had been fiddled with.

I do not think that we are talking about "---whoever is doing these things---" being good.

We are talking about "whoever did these things" being good.

To the best of my knowledge, this form of alteration is something from the distant past.It was probably still going on in the 1960's, but I believe most of this sort of work was done pre WWII.Even if we accept the 1960's as a cutoff date, that is stretching things a bit, because of political and social conditions in Jawa at that time.It is probably more realistic to think in terms of preWWII for all of these.

In the 1970's another form of alteration became obvious in the market place. This involved the afore mentioned welding of material to the gandik, and the reshaping, but the weld joints were then covered up with kinatah work. I believe most if not all of these came from only one maker.

And yes, the people who did these alterations were very, very skilled.

I personally believe that these alterations that demonstrate a high degree of skill are worth keeping for their own sake.

However, the problem is to identify them. It really can be tremendously difficult to find the weld joint indicating that an alteration has been done. Under normal buying conditions it unlikely that you will find it, it is only later when you can get it under magnification and good light that you might be able to find the joint, and even then you need experience, knowledge and to know exactly what you are looking for.The blade must be in stain to give a reasonable chance at detection, you must be able to move the blade under good light, and you need good magnification. Then you need to know what metal grain looks like, which is perhaps not so simple as one might think.

David · 13th December 2006, 05:04 AM

Hi Kai Wee. Could you post a photo of the entire blade for this lasr one.

Do you have an idea of the age on this one?

BluErf · 14th December 2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Kai Wee. Could you post a photo of the entire blade for this lasr one.

Do you have an idea of the age on this one?

Hello David,

Ok sure, I'll do that this weekend.

This keris looks like late 19th century or early 20th century to me, judging from the extent of wear on the blade (not a very reliable guide though).

BluErf · 17th December 2006, 02:34 AM

Oh, silly me. Didn't realize that I've already posted pictures of the singa barong on kampungnet.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

David · 17th December 2006, 01:38 PM

Thanks Kai Wee.

11th December 2006, 02:45 PM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Here's my other singa barong, from Palembang. I'm pretty sure this was not messed with and is an old singa barong. I couldn't see any forge lines flowing from the singa to the blade though. The grain flows from the nose, down the body to the rump. Attached Images

17th December 2006, 02:34 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh, silly me. Didn't realize that I've already posted pictures of the singa barong on kampungnet. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

11th December 2006, 02:36 PM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey, my avatar's gone missing!!

11th December 2006, 08:44 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Could it have been made that way in the first place? Anything is possible. I have the couple of blades I have already mentioned, but I also have a Bali blade where the head part of the naga has been put in place after the blade was forged. I do not know if this is a later addition, or was done when the blade was made, but close examination of material and style seems to indicate it might have been done at the time of making the blade. From what I have been told, and what I myself have observed, the "improvement" of older blades has been going on for a very, very long time. It would seem that in times past there were a lot of very big Tuban blades available in Jawa. These blades used to sell at very good prices, and were in high demand. Why? Because they were perfect for alteration to various other forms of blade that could be sold for multiples of the original cost. They were so big that a length could be cut from the tip and welded onto the gandik, thus giving sufficient thickness to allow a naga's head or a singo barong to be carved.The material was the same:- not so easy to pick that it had been fiddled with. I do not think that we are talking about "---whoever is doing these things---" being good. We are talking about "whoever did these things" being good. To the best of my knowledge, this form of alteration is something from the distant past.It was probably still going on in the 1960's, but I believe most of this sort of work was done pre WWII.Even if we accept the 1960's as a cutoff date, that is stretching things a bit, because of political and social conditions in Jawa at that time.It is probably more realistic to think in terms of preWWII for all of these. In the 1970's another form of alteration became obvious in the market place. This involved the afore mentioned welding of material to the gandik, and the reshaping, but the weld joints were then covered up with kinatah work. I believe most if not all of these came from only one maker. And yes, the people who did these alterations were very, very skilled. I personally believe that these alterations that demonstrate a high degree of skill are worth keeping for their own sake. However, the problem is to identify them. It really can be tremendously difficult to find the weld joint indicating that an alteration has been done. Under normal buying conditions it unlikely that you will find it, it is only later when you can get it under magnification and good light that you might be able to find the joint, and even then you need experience, knowledge and to know exactly what you are looking for.The blade must be in stain to give a reasonable chance at detection, you must be able to move the blade under good light, and you need good magnification. Then you need to know what metal grain looks like, which is perhaps not so simple as one might think.

13th December 2006, 05:04 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hi Kai Wee. Could you post a photo of the entire blade for this lasr one. Do you have an idea of the age on this one?

17th December 2006, 01:38 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks Kai Wee.