Another Bosnian Dagger

TVV · 1st December 2006, 06:14 AM

Jim,
Your observations are most interesting, as always. Since the dotted circle is a simple symbol, I wonder is the craftsmen in Bosnia did not arrive at it on their own, as it is really hard to see any link between ancient China and late 19th century Bosnia.
I have been told by contemporary craftsmen in Bulgaria (who decorate replica gun stocks), that the circle is hard to make. In many of the decorative circles there is more than just a dot, usually three triangles and it would resemble a nuclear symbol. Much of the decoration on Balkan arms is based on the intricate arrangement of simple geometric forms into brass rosettes. I have attached a picture illustrating how this works from a Bulgarian book dedicated to antique Balkan firerams, and a picture of the decoration on an actual rifle, where a solar motif is clearly visible in silver.
My personal opinion is that in the so called Islamic Baroque style, a solar motif was a bit intuitive to the craftsmen, who were limited in their expression by the use of simple geometric forms.
Regards,
Teodor

Battara · 1st December 2006, 07:36 PM

Yes I have been wondering about something while we are on (or off) the topic: sometimes I see the city name "Sarajevo" and a date - are such pieces with these on the blades in koftgari made for the market or "normal" for these pieces?

Lew · 1st December 2006, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes I have been wondering about something while we are on (or off) the topic: sometimes I see the city name "Sarajevo" and a date - are such pieces with these on the blades in koftgari made for the market or "normal" for these pieces?

I do not think they are dated for the market. Many smiths in Islam date their swords and daggers as seen on many older Sudan daggers marked OMDURMAN and the date of manufacture.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2006, 01:52 AM

Hi Teodor,
Thank you very much! I agree that any direct influence from China in Bosnia would seem unlikely, and such a simplistic device could easily been used almost anywhere worldwide, in fact that is noted in the symbols dictionary I cited. I find the use of symbols and markings on weapons fascinating and very much appreciate you posting the illustrations and sharing the notes on Bulgarian arms.
It is very interesting that these circles with the lines similar to present day 'radioactivity' symbols appear on these weapons as geometric motif. This is another thing that is fascinating, how certain early symbols have been adopted in modern times with meanings having nothing to do with original meanings, such as these 'radioactive' symbols and of course the swastika, which once used in Buddhism, was degraded by the unfortunate use later and remains instinctively despised.
I think your observation on solar motif being intuitively used in certain geometric motif is extremely well placed.

May I ask what is the title of the Bulgarian book on Balkan arms? It looks like a great reference.

Thanks again !

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 2nd December 2006, 03:01 AM

Jim,

I should have written the book's title and authors and I appologize for not doing so. The title is "Weaponry of the Past" by Viara Kovacheva and Nikola Daskalov, and is written in English. It is not a great reference as far as edged weapons are concerned, but it is a really good reference for anyone interested in Balkan firearms.
I have attached a scan of the cover.

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2006, 03:26 AM

Thanks very much Teodor!!!

Looks very interesting and books on anything Balkan as far as weapons are pretty scarce.
All the best,
Jim

1st December 2006, 06:14 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Jim, Your observations are most interesting, as always. Since the dotted circle is a simple symbol, I wonder is the craftsmen in Bosnia did not arrive at it on their own, as it is really hard to see any link between ancient China and late 19th century Bosnia. I have been told by contemporary craftsmen in Bulgaria (who decorate replica gun stocks), that the circle is hard to make. In many of the decorative circles there is more than just a dot, usually three triangles and it would resemble a nuclear symbol. Much of the decoration on Balkan arms is based on the intricate arrangement of simple geometric forms into brass rosettes. I have attached a picture illustrating how this works from a Bulgarian book dedicated to antique Balkan firerams, and a picture of the decoration on an actual rifle, where a solar motif is clearly visible in silver. My personal opinion is that in the so called Islamic Baroque style, a solar motif was a bit intuitive to the craftsmen, who were limited in their expression by the use of simple geometric forms. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

2nd December 2006, 03:01 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Jim, I should have written the book's title and authors and I appologize for not doing so. The title is "Weaponry of the Past" by Viara Kovacheva and Nikola Daskalov, and is written in English. It is not a great reference as far as edged weapons are concerned, but it is a really good reference for anyone interested in Balkan firearms. I have attached a scan of the cover. Attached Images

1st December 2006, 07:36 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Yes I have been wondering about something while we are on (or off) the topic: sometimes I see the city name "Sarajevo" and a date - are such pieces with these on the blades in koftgari made for the market or "normal" for these pieces?

2nd December 2006, 01:52 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Hi Teodor, Thank you very much! I agree that any direct influence from China in Bosnia would seem unlikely, and such a simplistic device could easily been used almost anywhere worldwide, in fact that is noted in the symbols dictionary I cited. I find the use of symbols and markings on weapons fascinating and very much appreciate you posting the illustrations and sharing the notes on Bulgarian arms. It is very interesting that these circles with the lines similar to present day 'radioactivity' symbols appear on these weapons as geometric motif. This is another thing that is fascinating, how certain early symbols have been adopted in modern times with meanings having nothing to do with original meanings, such as these 'radioactive' symbols and of course the swastika, which once used in Buddhism, was degraded by the unfortunate use later and remains instinctively despised. I think your observation on solar motif being intuitively used in certain geometric motif is extremely well placed. May I ask what is the title of the Bulgarian book on Balkan arms? It looks like a great reference. Thanks again ! All the best, Jim

2nd December 2006, 03:26 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Thanks very much Teodor!!! Looks very interesting and books on anything Balkan as far as weapons are pretty scarce. All the best, Jim