1908/ 1912 Pattern British Army Cavalry Sword

katana · 30th November 2006, 08:48 PM

Thankyou Gentleman,
as you can tell British swords are not my forte

.
But this 'caught' my eye....I like the idea that a sword may have a story..or two. This seems to fit the 'criteria'.....I feel that the sword hilt was 'modified' to improve its serviceability in the 'field'. But that is just my assumption. I do know that these swords were carried and, sometimes used during the conflict of WW1. I think I am right in saying that the last British Cavalry charge occurred during that terrible war.

Thanks Fernando, I will do some checking on the possible maker....greatly appreciate you finding this out.

As regards 'fencing'.........it certainly has that feel........I've been lunging, sword in hand..to the 'chorus' of 'en guarde' for several minutes......sad..but true

fernando · 30th November 2006, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

As regards 'fencing'.........it certainly has that feel........I've been lunging, sword in hand..to the 'chorus' of 'en guarde' for several minutes......sad..but true

Well, that falls again into the fantasy area. Fantasies are vital for one's mental health.

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2006, 01:01 AM

Hi Katana,
As correctly observed by Tim and Fernando, this is a British M1897 sword for Infantry officers, and remained in use for dress occasions through present day. If possible get a close up of the brass 'proof mark' on the blade and this might have a clue to either maker or outfitter. It seems Wilkinson, who made the larger numbers of these often numerically stamped blades, however it seems they would have the name on the blade.

A few notes on British cavalry charges, a favorite subject of mine from many years ago, taken from "Charge to Glory" by James Lunt (1976, p.1)...

"...the charge will always remain the thing in which it will be the cavalrymans pride to die sword in hand".
(Cavalry Journal, 1909)

The author dedicated this book to his friend, Captain Arthur Sandeman, of the Central India Horse, who died March 21,1942 leading the last mounted charge in the history of British cavalry at Toungoo, Burma. He was leading a mounted contingent of the Burma Frontier Force in the defense of areas around Toungoo, the main base for the famed "Flying Tigers" (American Volunteer Group"), when they rode into an ambush. Sandeman instinctively raised his sword and over sixty Indian sowars with him, mostly Sikhs, charged with him into eternity.

You are correct that there was considerable use of swords in WWI, by all countries' forces and such use continued in various degree into WWII.

General George Patton, always the true cavalryman, designed his M1913 cavalry sabre after the straight bladed British M1908, also adding the huge bowl type guard. As the cavalry units were finally dismounted and consigned to being mechanized forces, the use of the sword in combat was virtually finished. Describing these times, General Patton claimed that "...the saddest moment in his life came when he stood at attention, weeping, as his cavalry regiment marched past to stack thier sabres for the last time". ("The Long Gray Line", Atkinson, p.58).

After this, many of the huge hilted sabres were cut down into combat knives at the outset of WWII, with the huge guards providing necessary hand protection in close combat. These became known as 'Anderson stillettos' (for the firm who performed these conversions).

Just a few notes and some unbridled romanticism

that seem well placed in response to your views and enjoyment of this sword. While uncertain why the hilt on this has been so modified , there has clearly often been distinct purpose for doing so, however odd it must seem to us now.

In one last note concerning these brave cavalrymen, I once had the honor of visiting a British Brigadier who had served on the Northwest Frontier of India, leading one of the last cavalry charges in those regions near the Khyber Pass in the early 1930's, Brig. Francis Ingall (author of "Last of the Bengal Lancers", Presidio, 1988).
As he talked, showing me the M1912 cavalry sabre he had carried in the charge, he would constantly and wistfully glance at the portrait of his beloved charger, his horse Eagerheart.
We spoke of a very close friend of his, also a cavalryman with the 3rd Indian cavalry, who also served in Burma during WWII, later becoming a General, Major Gen. S.Shahid Hamid. In his book "So They Rode and Fought", General Hamid has inscribed,
"A sharp talwar or sabre, a sharp lance, a sharp pair of spurs,
and above all a good heart"

I will never forget that day, and just wanted to share some of the passion that makes our collecting and study of these weapons so compelling.

All the best,
Jim

Chris Evans · 1st December 2006, 03:17 AM

Hi Jim,

Great and informative post!

I have a 1912 officers model. It is supposed to be an outstanding sword, but to me it feels a bit clumsy, though probably was OK for mounted thrusting use. Once I saw a Indian army version, with a slightly shorter and much lighter blade (troopers issue) and it felt much better. The German WKC rendition also felt better in my hands - It too, had a shorter blade.

Cheers
Chris

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2006, 03:59 AM

Hi Chris,
Thank you so much!

I agree, these huge swords certainly were a bit awkward, though there was a lot of fanciful hyperbole about them being the ultimate sword design etc. I had a M1908 once that was great as it was entirely leather covered, hilt and all. It felt heavy and sturdy etc, but as you note, awkward for any sort of movement.
Thanks again,
All the best,
Jim

katana · 1st December 2006, 12:29 PM

Hi Jim,
thank you for your 'colourful' (colorful

) input

, do you know whether hilts were modified for 'field use' ? The cut across the guard has been done very neatly and where it would have connected to the pommel is so well done, that you would never know that it was cut at this point at all. It must have been done a very long time ago ....I am sure it isn't a recent adaption.

katana · 1st December 2006, 01:29 PM

Hi Jim,
I forgot to mention .....the 'proof' mark has the word 'PROVED' arcing around the curve of the circular mark ....in between the P and D is stamped a shape similar to pic below, it is quite worn.....obviously looks to be a crown..

1st December 2006, 01:01 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Hi Katana, As correctly observed by Tim and Fernando, this is a British M1897 sword for Infantry officers, and remained in use for dress occasions through present day. If possible get a close up of the brass 'proof mark' on the blade and this might have a clue to either maker or outfitter. It seems Wilkinson, who made the larger numbers of these often numerically stamped blades, however it seems they would have the name on the blade. A few notes on British cavalry charges, a favorite subject of mine from many years ago, taken from "Charge to Glory" by James Lunt (1976, p.1)... "...the charge will always remain the thing in which it will be the cavalrymans pride to die sword in hand". (Cavalry Journal, 1909) The author dedicated this book to his friend, Captain Arthur Sandeman, of the Central India Horse, who died March 21,1942 leading the last mounted charge in the history of British cavalry at Toungoo, Burma. He was leading a mounted contingent of the Burma Frontier Force in the defense of areas around Toungoo, the main base for the famed "Flying Tigers" (American Volunteer Group"), when they rode into an ambush. Sandeman instinctively raised his sword and over sixty Indian sowars with him, mostly Sikhs, charged with him into eternity. You are correct that there was considerable use of swords in WWI, by all countries' forces and such use continued in various degree into WWII. General George Patton, always the true cavalryman, designed his M1913 cavalry sabre after the straight bladed British M1908, also adding the huge bowl type guard. As the cavalry units were finally dismounted and consigned to being mechanized forces, the use of the sword in combat was virtually finished. Describing these times, General Patton claimed that "...the saddest moment in his life came when he stood at attention, weeping, as his cavalry regiment marched past to stack thier sabres for the last time". ("The Long Gray Line", Atkinson, p.58). After this, many of the huge hilted sabres were cut down into combat knives at the outset of WWII, with the huge guards providing necessary hand protection in close combat. These became known as 'Anderson stillettos' (for the firm who performed these conversions). Just a few notes and some unbridled romanticism that seem well placed in response to your views and enjoyment of this sword. While uncertain why the hilt on this has been so modified , there has clearly often been distinct purpose for doing so, however odd it must seem to us now. In one last note concerning these brave cavalrymen, I once had the honor of visiting a British Brigadier who had served on the Northwest Frontier of India, leading one of the last cavalry charges in those regions near the Khyber Pass in the early 1930's, Brig. Francis Ingall (author of "Last of the Bengal Lancers", Presidio, 1988). As he talked, showing me the M1912 cavalry sabre he had carried in the charge, he would constantly and wistfully glance at the portrait of his beloved charger, his horse Eagerheart. We spoke of a very close friend of his, also a cavalryman with the 3rd Indian cavalry, who also served in Burma during WWII, later becoming a General, Major Gen. S.Shahid Hamid. In his book "So They Rode and Fought", General Hamid has inscribed, "A sharp talwar or sabre, a sharp lance, a sharp pair of spurs, and above all a good heart" I will never forget that day, and just wanted to share some of the passion that makes our collecting and study of these weapons so compelling. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st December 2006 at 02:53 AM.

1st December 2006, 01:29 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, I forgot to mention .....the 'proof' mark has the word 'PROVED' arcing around the curve of the circular mark ....in between the P and D is stamped a shape similar to pic below, it is quite worn.....obviously looks to be a crown.. Attached Images

30th November 2006, 08:48 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thankyou Gentleman, as you can tell British swords are not my forte . But this 'caught' my eye....I like the idea that a sword may have a story..or two. This seems to fit the 'criteria'.....I feel that the sword hilt was 'modified' to improve its serviceability in the 'field'. But that is just my assumption. I do know that these swords were carried and, sometimes used during the conflict of WW1. I think I am right in saying that the last British Cavalry charge occurred during that terrible war. Thanks Fernando, I will do some checking on the possible maker....greatly appreciate you finding this out. As regards 'fencing'.........it certainly has that feel........I've been lunging, sword in hand..to the 'chorus' of 'en guarde' for several minutes......sad..but true

1st December 2006, 03:17 AM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Jim, Great and informative post! I have a 1912 officers model. It is supposed to be an outstanding sword, but to me it feels a bit clumsy, though probably was OK for mounted thrusting use. Once I saw a Indian army version, with a slightly shorter and much lighter blade (troopers issue) and it felt much better. The German WKC rendition also felt better in my hands - It too, had a shorter blade. Cheers Chris

1st December 2006, 03:59 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Hi Chris, Thank you so much! I agree, these huge swords certainly were a bit awkward, though there was a lot of fanciful hyperbole about them being the ultimate sword design etc. I had a M1908 once that was great as it was entirely leather covered, hilt and all. It felt heavy and sturdy etc, but as you note, awkward for any sort of movement. Thanks again, All the best, Jim

1st December 2006, 12:29 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, thank you for your 'colourful' (colorful ) input , do you know whether hilts were modified for 'field use' ? The cut across the guard has been done very neatly and where it would have connected to the pommel is so well done, that you would never know that it was cut at this point at all. It must have been done a very long time ago ....I am sure it isn't a recent adaption.