Brass Dagger

Robert · 22nd November 2006, 06:09 PM

Here is another dagger that I just picked up. It is probably of Ilocano design just like the last few that I have posted. The difference with this one is that it is made of either brass or bronze. I guess I'll find out when it arrives. The grip is made of horn. What can anyone tell me about the significance of using brass for blades if any other than steel not being available? Was there any special reasons for using this material for a knife or dagger of this vintage? Thanks for any help that anyone can offer. These pictures are from the auction and the only ones that I have right now. I will try to post better pictures of it after it arrives.

Robert

Robert · 29th November 2006, 05:56 AM

The dagger arrived today. I will try to post new pictures tomorrow. It is a very well made piece. The scabbard fittings are brass as well as the pommel, ferrell and cross-guard. The blade itself is either red brass or copper. Does anyone know of a simple way how to tell which metal it is?

Battara · 29th November 2006, 05:25 PM

Red brass still looks a little more yellow than copper and not as red. However, without the comparison, it is difficult. Most likely I would suspect red brass because it would be stiffer and would hold up much better than copper (a very soft material in comparison).

Rick · 29th November 2006, 07:15 PM

If I recall from reading Toer's works there is an associated purpose for a non ferrous blade in Jawa at least; this is more a Magik kind of attribute though.

There was a scene in one of the books where a person was assasinated in the street with a (brass/copper?) knife (not a keris) .

Robert · 29th November 2006, 09:11 PM

Battara and Rick,
Thank you for your interest and comments. I have compared the blade to a piece of red brass and an old piece of copper and the blade looks most likely to be made of copper. This seems to be a strange combination of materials to make a dagger from unless steel was at a premium or not available at the time it was made.

If it stops raining for a few minutes I will take new pictures. Should the brass and copper be polished or just cleaned with ren wax and a soft cloth?

Robert

Rick · 29th November 2006, 10:43 PM

I like it in patina myself.
This piece is most likely NOT made for want of steel.
In my opinion it has a specific purpose.

Copper can be work hardened cold.

Robert · 29th November 2006, 11:41 PM

Rick,
Do you have an idea of what the specific purpose for this would have been? If you do please let me know as I am trying to find out as much as I can about this very interesting piece. I thank you again for your help.

Robert

Rick · 30th November 2006, 01:44 AM

IIRC some Indo/Malay cultures believe that a wound made with a Copper blade is invariably fatal.

Toer mentions this in the Buru Quartet , again IIRC.

Try a Google ; YMMV.

Robert · 30th November 2006, 02:46 AM

Rick,
Thank you again for the information. Not trying to sound too stupid but what do IIRC and YMMV mean?

Robert

Rick · 30th November 2006, 02:54 AM

If I Recall Correctly
and
Your Mileage May Vary

Robert · 30th November 2006, 04:22 AM

OK, Now I do feel stupid!

Rick · 30th November 2006, 03:55 PM

Sorry Robert , I cut my teeth on USENET Newsgroups .

A lot of those originated there .

Have you had any luck Googling Malay beliefs about copper weapons ?

Robert · 30th November 2006, 04:39 PM

Hi Rick,
No luck so far but I don't give up easily.

I'm sure if I keep on looking that I will find something. If it was believed that a wound made with a copper blade is invariably fatal would these have mostly been carried as a defensive weapon an offensive weapon or as an instrument of revenge?

Robert

Battara · 1st December 2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

IIRC some Indo/Malay cultures believe that a wound made with a Copper blade is invariably fatal.

I have heard this before. Some of this I can attribute to the oxidation of copper which is fatal, a copper oxide poisoning (thus tin was added to the bottom of copper pots).

Any other purpose -

If you find anything else please post, I am not aware of any Filipino reason for a copper blade.

Robert · 1st December 2006, 10:03 PM

Hi Jose,
So far I haven't able to find anything specific on Filipino use of copper blades but I have found a lot of information on other cultures beliefs on the using of copper for blades. If anyone else here on the forum has any information on this subject please post. Here are a couple of new pictures. I had to take these inside as we had a 14" snowfall last night and because of all the metal I have in me I cannot tolerate cold weather at all.

Total length 8"
Blade length 4-1/2"
Blade width at hilt 1"

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2006, 10:35 PM

Non ferrous weapons are very interesting and appear the world wide. I only really have a handling knowledge of African examples. They are not toys, even if they do not appear the strongest weapons. They could be used in magic, execution, and just simply status symbols like a modern day generals baton, an authoritative bauble like a lord mayor chain, wealth and so on. Your knife is very nice with a matching scabbard, looks purposeful indeed. I wonder if the full knowledge of these esoteric pieces is only divulged to those who matter. I have half a dozen or so, I know Freddy has some too.

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 06:47 PM

This is the only truly offence nonferrous weapon I have rather like a Tumbok, if that is the right spelling. It is an old weapon, the leather tassels on the scabbard are on the edge of existence, very time I admire it I wince. The marks on the blade and on the handle are most mysterious and simple, like runic script and other magic symbols. I am starting to warm to this thread, maybe we might see more nonferrous weapons. Perhaps these weapons are defence against harmful witchcraft. I believe modern western witchcraft is more fixated on iron?

Robert · 2nd December 2006, 08:55 PM

Hi Tim,
Nice dagger. Is the blade sharpened on one or both edges ? It has been difficult to find much general information on the mystical use of copper blades other than that it seems that they can be used as an energy focal point for either good or evil. I hope that someone comes up with more about this than I have been able to find.

Robert

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 09:13 PM

Hi Robert,
The dagger does not have sharp edges. Like most tumbok.

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 09:33 PM

I forgot about this rather special spear to my mind. I am sure it functioned more than just for show. I post a picture next to a sword so you can get a feel for how business like it is. Of all my weapons it is this one that I find a little scary? unpleasant? I think it is a lovely piece.

Robert · 2nd December 2006, 11:12 PM

Tim, Great spear. Could you post some close-ups of the blade please? Also could you give more information on age, where and who it was made by, blade length and width? Thanks.

Robert

not2sharp · 3rd December 2006, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

IIRC some Indo/Malay cultures believe that a wound made with a Copper blade is invariably fatal.

Toer mentions this in the Buru Quartet , again IIRC.

Try a Google ; YMMV.

Then again; perhaps the locals were tempted by the mass availability of brass (spent shell casings) abandon all over the place after WWII.

n2s

Robert · 3rd December 2006, 07:14 AM

not2sharp,
I thought about this but the blade is copper not brass plus I believe this to be pre WWII. What I am wondering about is what was the purpose of making a blade out of copper and not steel?

Robert

Tim Simmons · 3rd December 2006, 06:34 PM

The blade.

Robert · 4th December 2006, 06:02 AM

Tim, Is this crossed pinned to secure it to the shaft? It definitely looks like it could be quite functional to me. Is it brass and could you post a side picture of the blade to give a better idea of its design?

Robert

Tim Simmons · 4th December 2006, 07:58 PM

Robert sorry for not giving all the information in one. Sometimes I have to do other things than talk and look at ethno weapons

. Yes this has a large iron pin in the socket part of the spear blade. The blade is 5mm at the forte with a thick central part which is decorated. The blade part alone is 19cm long. the whole construction is as strong if not stronger than many iron/steel bladed spear. I did show this many years ago then I suggested it was Saharan. I now think the wood of the halft is from more tropical parts of west Africa, Dahomey? only speculation when compered to other wood staffs. As to function, I am not sure if it would have been used in a combat situation. I am sure it was used in the way a spear would be used, the swollen end/handle is just made for pushing the spear forward. The imagination takes over, thats why I find this piece just a little scary.

Robert · 4th December 2006, 10:19 PM

Tim, I only have one spear (only the head itself ) in my collection. It is from Africa and made of thin steel and looks no where near as serviceable as your example. I would agree by the way that yours was made that it was not just ceremonial but made with enough added strength to make it quite functional as well. Maybe this was just the thing that you would take with you to the big dance just for that one jerk that kept trying to put the move on your best girl.

Robert · 7th December 2006, 03:39 AM

A friend furnished me with this on copper blades. "Copper with a sufficient amount of arsenic added would enable the blade to have been work-hardened to a considerable degree without becoming brittle." This might help account for the belief that being stabbed with a copper blade to be fatal.

Robert

Andrew · 7th December 2006, 05:36 AM

I have an old copper-bladed mak we discussed here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=copper

Robert · 13th December 2006, 05:33 AM

Here is another copper bladed dagger of similar size. I'm not sure if it has the same age as the other one posted but still an interesting item. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to test for arsenic content on or in the blades on these daggers? Thanks.

Robert

22nd November 2006, 06:09 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Brass Dagger Here is another dagger that I just picked up. It is probably of Ilocano design just like the last few that I have posted. The difference with this one is that it is made of either brass or bronze. I guess I'll find out when it arrives. The grip is made of horn. What can anyone tell me about the significance of using brass for blades if any other than steel not being available? Was there any special reasons for using this material for a knife or dagger of this vintage? Thanks for any help that anyone can offer. These pictures are from the auction and the only ones that I have right now. I will try to post better pictures of it after it arrives. Robert Attached Images

30th November 2006, 01:44 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	For What It's Worth IIRC some Indo/Malay cultures believe that a wound made with a Copper blade is invariably fatal. Toer mentions this in the Buru Quartet , again IIRC. Try a Google ; YMMV.

30th November 2006, 02:54 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Web Acronyms If I Recall Correctly and Your Mileage May Vary

1st December 2006, 10:03 PM	#15
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Jose, So far I haven't able to find anything specific on Filipino use of copper blades but I have found a lot of information on other cultures beliefs on the using of copper for blades. If anyone else here on the forum has any information on this subject please post. Here are a couple of new pictures. I had to take these inside as we had a 14" snowfall last night and because of all the metal I have in me I cannot tolerate cold weather at all. Total length 8" Blade length 4-1/2" Blade width at hilt 1" Attached Images

2nd December 2006, 09:33 PM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I forgot about this rather special spear to my mind. I am sure it functioned more than just for show. I post a picture next to a sword so you can get a feel for how business like it is. Of all my weapons it is this one that I find a little scary? unpleasant? I think it is a lovely piece. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 2nd December 2006 at 09:44 PM.

29th November 2006, 05:56 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The dagger arrived today. I will try to post new pictures tomorrow. It is a very well made piece. The scabbard fittings are brass as well as the pommel, ferrell and cross-guard. The blade itself is either red brass or copper. Does anyone know of a simple way how to tell which metal it is?

29th November 2006, 05:25 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Red brass still looks a little more yellow than copper and not as red. However, without the comparison, it is difficult. Most likely I would suspect red brass because it would be stiffer and would hold up much better than copper (a very soft material in comparison).

29th November 2006, 07:15 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	If I recall from reading Toer's works there is an associated purpose for a non ferrous blade in Jawa at least; this is more a Magik kind of attribute though. There was a scene in one of the books where a person was assasinated in the street with a (brass/copper?) knife (not a keris) .

29th November 2006, 09:11 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Battara and Rick, Thank you for your interest and comments. I have compared the blade to a piece of red brass and an old piece of copper and the blade looks most likely to be made of copper. This seems to be a strange combination of materials to make a dagger from unless steel was at a premium or not available at the time it was made. If it stops raining for a few minutes I will take new pictures. Should the brass and copper be polished or just cleaned with ren wax and a soft cloth? Robert

29th November 2006, 10:43 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I like it in patina myself. This piece is most likely NOT made for want of steel. In my opinion it has a specific purpose. Copper can be work hardened cold.

29th November 2006, 11:41 PM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Rick, Do you have an idea of what the specific purpose for this would have been? If you do please let me know as I am trying to find out as much as I can about this very interesting piece. I thank you again for your help. Robert

30th November 2006, 02:46 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Rick, Thank you again for the information. Not trying to sound too stupid but what do IIRC and YMMV mean? Robert

30th November 2006, 04:22 AM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK, Now I do feel stupid!

30th November 2006, 03:55 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Sorry Robert , I cut my teeth on USENET Newsgroups . A lot of those originated there . Have you had any luck Googling Malay beliefs about copper weapons ?

30th November 2006, 04:39 PM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Rick, No luck so far but I don't give up easily. I'm sure if I keep on looking that I will find something. If it was believed that a wound made with a copper blade is invariably fatal would these have mostly been carried as a defensive weapon an offensive weapon or as an instrument of revenge? Robert

1st December 2006, 10:35 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Non ferrous weapons are very interesting and appear the world wide. I only really have a handling knowledge of African examples. They are not toys, even if they do not appear the strongest weapons. They could be used in magic, execution, and just simply status symbols like a modern day generals baton, an authoritative bauble like a lord mayor chain, wealth and so on. Your knife is very nice with a matching scabbard, looks purposeful indeed. I wonder if the full knowledge of these esoteric pieces is only divulged to those who matter. I have half a dozen or so, I know Freddy has some too.

2nd December 2006, 06:47 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This is the only truly offence nonferrous weapon I have rather like a Tumbok, if that is the right spelling. It is an old weapon, the leather tassels on the scabbard are on the edge of existence, very time I admire it I wince. The marks on the blade and on the handle are most mysterious and simple, like runic script and other magic symbols. I am starting to warm to this thread, maybe we might see more nonferrous weapons. Perhaps these weapons are defence against harmful witchcraft. I believe modern western witchcraft is more fixated on iron?

2nd December 2006, 08:55 PM	#18
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Tim, Nice dagger. Is the blade sharpened on one or both edges ? It has been difficult to find much general information on the mystical use of copper blades other than that it seems that they can be used as an energy focal point for either good or evil. I hope that someone comes up with more about this than I have been able to find. Robert

2nd December 2006, 09:13 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi Robert, The dagger does not have sharp edges. Like most tumbok.

2nd December 2006, 11:12 PM	#21
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tim, Great spear. Could you post some close-ups of the blade please? Also could you give more information on age, where and who it was made by, blade length and width? Thanks. Robert

3rd December 2006, 07:14 AM	#23
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	not2sharp, I thought about this but the blade is copper not brass plus I believe this to be pre WWII. What I am wondering about is what was the purpose of making a blade out of copper and not steel? Robert

3rd December 2006, 06:34 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The blade.

4th December 2006, 06:02 AM	#25
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tim, Is this crossed pinned to secure it to the shaft? It definitely looks like it could be quite functional to me. Is it brass and could you post a side picture of the blade to give a better idea of its design? Robert

4th December 2006, 07:58 PM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Robert sorry for not giving all the information in one. Sometimes I have to do other things than talk and look at ethno weapons . Yes this has a large iron pin in the socket part of the spear blade. The blade is 5mm at the forte with a thick central part which is decorated. The blade part alone is 19cm long. the whole construction is as strong if not stronger than many iron/steel bladed spear. I did show this many years ago then I suggested it was Saharan. I now think the wood of the halft is from more tropical parts of west Africa, Dahomey? only speculation when compered to other wood staffs. As to function, I am not sure if it would have been used in a combat situation. I am sure it was used in the way a spear would be used, the swollen end/handle is just made for pushing the spear forward. The imagination takes over, thats why I find this piece just a little scary.

4th December 2006, 10:19 PM	#27
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tim, I only have one spear (only the head itself ) in my collection. It is from Africa and made of thin steel and looks no where near as serviceable as your example. I would agree by the way that yours was made that it was not just ceremonial but made with enough added strength to make it quite functional as well. Maybe this was just the thing that you would take with you to the big dance just for that one jerk that kept trying to put the move on your best girl.

7th December 2006, 03:39 AM	#28
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	A friend furnished me with this on copper blades. "Copper with a sufficient amount of arsenic added would enable the blade to have been work-hardened to a considerable degree without becoming brittle." This might help account for the belief that being stabbed with a copper blade to be fatal. Robert

7th December 2006, 05:36 AM	#29
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I have an old copper-bladed mak we discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=copper

13th December 2006, 05:33 AM	#30
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Here is another copper bladed dagger of similar size. I'm not sure if it has the same age as the other one posted but still an interesting item. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to test for arsenic content on or in the blades on these daggers? Thanks. Robert Attached Images