Markings or Decorations on Mexican Swords

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2006, 09:36 AM

Hi Matt,
Still at it here!
In reviewing some interesting data on American swords. One of the earlier issues of regulation military swords for the U.S. was the M1833 which was essentially the same three bar hilt, adopted from the British M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. Apparantly although the well established maker of U.S. swords, Ames Co. of Chicopee, Mass. had a contract for these, they were substantially imported to the U.S. from several foreign makers by Tiffany & Co. of New York (these were typically unmarked as the buyer usually placed thier own name on the swords in these cases). It is suggested that the makers possibly included Robt. Mole of Birmingham, England along with two Solingen makers; Schnitzler & Kirschbaum and our Peter D. Luneschloss (PDL).

It is interesting that Albaugh ("Handbook of Confederate Swords") notes that many of the M1833 examples saw service with Confederate officers later in the Civil War. We have already established that PDL was a well established supplier of weapons actually to both sides during the Civil War, but in every instance of these, clearly much later than your sword which falls into the M1833 period, the marking is the PDL stamped in oval cartouche.

In further references concerning an Ames made M1833 dragoon sabre, it is noted that markings on the blade seem to have been engraved in cursive script, rather than stamped as was commonly the practice during those times (in the period 1834-1839).

With these sundry references which I found through various online searches, it would seem that the established activity of importing blades from Solingen, notably from P.D.Luneschloss during the period suggested in the 1830's may offer clues pertaining to your sword. Obviously with the complexities that appear to prevail with the U.S. swords and subcontracting to Solingen for them, as well as the note on the use of cursive script, despite appearing on the American made example M1833, it seems that our PDL may have also adopted that practice at the time. It would be too much to presume that a sword of this period with these initials at the forte of the blade, where makers typically identify thier work, would be those of an individual, particularly on a Mexican sword.

Again, while these observations and suggestions are derived from material I have read in various online searches, and obviously are speculative on my part, it seems that they may carry a degree of plausibility worth considering and researching further.

As always, very much enjoying the adventure!!

Thanks Matt!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 02:19 AM

Hi Matt,
Just a brief

update!
Going through the Wallace Collection catalog on an entirely different quest, came across p,268 #A520, a rehilted sword with a blade dating c.1770, by P.Knecht and with the 'Spanish motto' draw me not without reason etc.
This of course supports the theory that these blades were indeed from Solingen.
Best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 11th December 2006, 05:35 AM

Hello Jim! I've got a Colonial Spanish sword with the 3 bar hilted guard, a solid brass lion hilt and straight Spanish broadsword-style sword with the 3 fullers. It is made by a German maker identified via Bezdek (I'm at work and can't remember their names) as from the 1800-1837 period and it has the Spanish motto "Draw me without reason,etc,etc."
The hilt has the classic primative line decorations to the bars, so typical of Spanish colonial. Very interesting discussion here.

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 04:42 PM

Hi Mark!!

Its great to hear from you!!

Its been a while, and I remember our discussions on that sword, extremely nice piece!
Maybe you could put in a photo of it to enhance the discussion on this very interesting topic on these swords of early Mexico.
Thank you for coming in on this.
All the best,
Jim

Matt, you still out there?

M ELEY · 13th December 2006, 02:39 AM

Hello, Jim! I remember fondly our discussions on Spanish colonial and "pirate" swords. Unfortunately, I am still computer-illiterate when it comes to posting pics anywhere, let alone on this forum. Sorry! Still, I'm glad you mentioned the connection with Solingen makers using the Spanish saying. One must remember that not all markings can be taken literally (otherwise, almost every Scottish basket was made in Italy by Andrea Fererra!). You don't know how many times I've had people insist that my sword blade was re-etched or spuriously marked!

Matt Branch · 15th December 2006, 12:24 AM

Hi Jim and Mark,
Thanks for you're input!
Sorry for the absence, I didn't get any notification about you're posts,
( I was getting e-mail when ever someone posted on my thread but have not got one since last month)
I have been doing searches looking for images of swords to compare to mine,
and trying to contact long lost relatives who might know more about how my GG Grandfather and the Sword, his Whitney Ball and Cap Revolver and a Cane Sword that I have that I think was his.
I have not heard back for Casa Aragon or The Klingemuseum.
I am somewhat at a loss about the decorations, I have seen some good examples of tri-fuller blades with the spanish motto draw me... but I have not found one with the eagle, canon and floral pattern with flags.
I had hoped that the Klingenmuseum would have some record of P D L etching blades with these themes.
Thanks Jim and Mark for you're input!
Is the "Wallace Collection" in a specific book?
Jim what do you make of the eagle, canon, and flags?
I have not been able to find a connection to the Treaty Map, but it seems to me that the eagle with the canon and flags could have something to do with the end of the Mexican/ American War, would those lend more to an Infantry or a Calvary unit?
Best Regards
Matt

Matt Branch · 18th December 2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello, Jim! I remember fondly our discussions on Spanish colonial and "pirate" swords. Unfortunately, I am still computer-illiterate when it comes to posting pics anywhere, let alone on this forum. Sorry! Still, I'm glad you mentioned the connection with Solingen makers using the Spanish saying. One must remember that not all markings can be taken literally (otherwise, almost every Scottish basket was made in Italy by Andrea Fererra!). You don't know how many times I've had people insist that my sword blade was re-etched or spuriously marked!

Hi Mark,
Thanks for you're input.
Do you have the ability to e-mail a photo of you're sword?
I will send you my e-mail if you can and I will post it here.
Regards
Matt

Matt Branch · 18th December 2006, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Mark!!

Its great to hear from you!!

Its been a while, and I remember our discussions on that sword, extremely nice piece!
Maybe you could put in a photo of it to enhance the discussion on this very interesting topic on these swords of early Mexico.
Thank you for coming in on this.
All the best,
Jim

Matt, you still out there?

Hi Jim,
I am still looking for more information on Spanish Colonial Swords.
I expect to acuire a copy of German Swords and Sword Makers soon.
I posted again on the SFI German language forum and a gentleman there also thinks the blade is Lonenschloss you can see the thread on SFI
Is there anywhere to look for more on the rehilting of these swords?
Regards
Matt

Matt Branch · 27th December 2006, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Matt,
Still at it here!
In reviewing some interesting data on American swords. One of the earlier issues of regulation military swords for the U.S. was the M1833 which was essentially the same three bar hilt, adopted from the British M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. Apparantly although the well established maker of U.S. swords, Ames Co. of Chicopee, Mass. had a contract for these, they were substantially imported to the U.S. from several foreign makers by Tiffany & Co. of New York (these were typically unmarked as the buyer usually placed thier own name on the swords in these cases). It is suggested that the makers possibly included Robt. Mole of Birmingham, England along with two Solingen makers; Schnitzler & Kirschbaum and our Peter D. Luneschloss (PDL).

It is interesting that Albaugh ("Handbook of Confederate Swords") notes that many of the M1833 examples saw service with Confederate officers later in the Civil War. We have already established that PDL was a well established supplier of weapons actually to both sides during the Civil War, but in every instance of these, clearly much later than your sword which falls into the M1833 period, the marking is the PDL stamped in oval cartouche.

In further references concerning an Ames made M1833 dragoon sabre, it is noted that markings on the blade seem to have been engraved in cursive script, rather than stamped as was commonly the practice during those times (in the period 1834-1839).

With these sundry references which I found through various online searches, it would seem that the established activity of importing blades from Solingen, notably from P.D.Luneschloss during the period suggested in the 1830's may offer clues pertaining to your sword. Obviously with the complexities that appear to prevail with the U.S. swords and subcontracting to Solingen for them, as well as the note on the use of cursive script, despite appearing on the American made example M1833, it seems that our PDL may have also adopted that practice at the time. It would be too much to presume that a sword of this period with these initials at the forte of the blade, where makers typically identify thier work, would be those of an individual, particularly on a Mexican sword.

Again, while these observations and suggestions are derived from material I have read in various online searches, and obviously are speculative on my part, it seems that they may carry a degree of plausibility worth considering and researching further.

As always, very much enjoying the adventure!!

Thanks Matt!

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
I've been trying to find the information you wrote here so I could document it, and I'm having trouble finding it after many searches.
Do you have a copy of any of Albaugh's 3 books on confererats swords? I can't afford all the books I've found.
Do you remember where it is recorded about the PDL etched or inscribed in cursive blades?
Is the Wallace Collection a book? When I do a search, there are thousands of hits but not a sword collection.
I finally got an e-mail from Guerillmo Aragon and sent him some pictures, have not heard back yet.
I have not heard back from the Klingenmeuseum yet either.
I did find a book that was written by one of my ancestors and published with a Michigan historical society that mentions the sword and pistols in my g great grandfathers house right after the Cival War.
I'm still trying to figure out the decorations, still can't find anyting like them,
I can't travel to the museums with good collections.
Thanks again Jim for all you're help, got any suggestions on where I can find information on the decorations?
Regards
Matt

Matt Branch · 10th January 2007, 04:20 PM

I have e-mailed a link to my thread to some people to see the photos of my sword in hopes of more information on the decoration. I wanted to post a couple more photos of diffrent details.

15th December 2006, 12:24 AM	#6
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	Searching Hi Jim and Mark, Thanks for you're input! Sorry for the absence, I didn't get any notification about you're posts, ( I was getting e-mail when ever someone posted on my thread but have not got one since last month) I have been doing searches looking for images of swords to compare to mine, and trying to contact long lost relatives who might know more about how my GG Grandfather and the Sword, his Whitney Ball and Cap Revolver and a Cane Sword that I have that I think was his. I have not heard back for Casa Aragon or The Klingemuseum. I am somewhat at a loss about the decorations, I have seen some good examples of tri-fuller blades with the spanish motto draw me... but I have not found one with the eagle, canon and floral pattern with flags. I had hoped that the Klingenmuseum would have some record of P D L etching blades with these themes. Thanks Jim and Mark for you're input! Is the "Wallace Collection" in a specific book? Jim what do you make of the eagle, canon, and flags? I have not been able to find a connection to the Treaty Map, but it seems to me that the eagle with the canon and flags could have something to do with the end of the Mexican/ American War, would those lend more to an Infantry or a Calvary unit? Best Regards Matt

10th January 2007, 04:20 PM	#10
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	some more photos I have e-mailed a link to my thread to some people to see the photos of my sword in hopes of more information on the decoration. I wanted to post a couple more photos of diffrent details. Attached Images

26th November 2006, 09:36 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Matt, Still at it here! In reviewing some interesting data on American swords. One of the earlier issues of regulation military swords for the U.S. was the M1833 which was essentially the same three bar hilt, adopted from the British M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. Apparantly although the well established maker of U.S. swords, Ames Co. of Chicopee, Mass. had a contract for these, they were substantially imported to the U.S. from several foreign makers by Tiffany & Co. of New York (these were typically unmarked as the buyer usually placed thier own name on the swords in these cases). It is suggested that the makers possibly included Robt. Mole of Birmingham, England along with two Solingen makers; Schnitzler & Kirschbaum and our Peter D. Luneschloss (PDL). It is interesting that Albaugh ("Handbook of Confederate Swords") notes that many of the M1833 examples saw service with Confederate officers later in the Civil War. We have already established that PDL was a well established supplier of weapons actually to both sides during the Civil War, but in every instance of these, clearly much later than your sword which falls into the M1833 period, the marking is the PDL stamped in oval cartouche. In further references concerning an Ames made M1833 dragoon sabre, it is noted that markings on the blade seem to have been engraved in cursive script, rather than stamped as was commonly the practice during those times (in the period 1834-1839). With these sundry references which I found through various online searches, it would seem that the established activity of importing blades from Solingen, notably from P.D.Luneschloss during the period suggested in the 1830's may offer clues pertaining to your sword. Obviously with the complexities that appear to prevail with the U.S. swords and subcontracting to Solingen for them, as well as the note on the use of cursive script, despite appearing on the American made example M1833, it seems that our PDL may have also adopted that practice at the time. It would be too much to presume that a sword of this period with these initials at the forte of the blade, where makers typically identify thier work, would be those of an individual, particularly on a Mexican sword. Again, while these observations and suggestions are derived from material I have read in various online searches, and obviously are speculative on my part, it seems that they may carry a degree of plausibility worth considering and researching further. As always, very much enjoying the adventure!! Thanks Matt! All the best, Jim

11th December 2006, 02:19 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Matt, Just a brief update! Going through the Wallace Collection catalog on an entirely different quest, came across p,268 #A520, a rehilted sword with a blade dating c.1770, by P.Knecht and with the 'Spanish motto' draw me not without reason etc. This of course supports the theory that these blades were indeed from Solingen. Best regards, Jim

11th December 2006, 05:35 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Jim! I've got a Colonial Spanish sword with the 3 bar hilted guard, a solid brass lion hilt and straight Spanish broadsword-style sword with the 3 fullers. It is made by a German maker identified via Bezdek (I'm at work and can't remember their names) as from the 1800-1837 period and it has the Spanish motto "Draw me without reason,etc,etc." The hilt has the classic primative line decorations to the bars, so typical of Spanish colonial. Very interesting discussion here.

11th December 2006, 04:42 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Mark!! Its great to hear from you!! Its been a while, and I remember our discussions on that sword, extremely nice piece! Maybe you could put in a photo of it to enhance the discussion on this very interesting topic on these swords of early Mexico. Thank you for coming in on this. All the best, Jim Matt, you still out there?

13th December 2006, 02:39 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello, Jim! I remember fondly our discussions on Spanish colonial and "pirate" swords. Unfortunately, I am still computer-illiterate when it comes to posting pics anywhere, let alone on this forum. Sorry! Still, I'm glad you mentioned the connection with Solingen makers using the Spanish saying. One must remember that not all markings can be taken literally (otherwise, almost every Scottish basket was made in Italy by Andrea Fererra!). You don't know how many times I've had people insist that my sword blade was re-etched or spuriously marked!