1730 Rapier or a Victorian 'Copy' .........any ideas?

katana · 25th November 2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Despite all the BBQ tool analysis

JUDL!! I cant resist throwing in my 2cents on this 'item'.

I am inclined to agree with Marc on the 'Victorian' period assessment, but am wondering if this might be a theatrical weapon. It seems that some of the weapons made for 'period' performances were made sturdily, although not necessarily completely accurate. While this sword is made to appear to be a cuphilt rapier, it is clearly not intended to withstand comparison to the authentic examples. It would however, present the desired effect as part of a costume in a performance.

Katana, even if this is a Victorian period sword, for whatever purpose, it still clearly has its own story to tell....

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim for your 2 cents worth......interesting and imaginative angle

Other than the possible peened pommel, the overall 'crudeness' of the sword's construction 'swayed' me into believing that this might not be 'Victoriana' and hence I took a risk.

My reasoning was that a 'wallhanger' would be more ornate...and accurate.... this sword looked more simplistic and functional. I tried to find similar examples on the web and .....found none.

I began to wonder whether this was a 'blacksmiths' sword.....apparently a number of blacksmiths produced cheaper basic swords during the 17c-18c ( and possibly before and after this period)
I cannot remember the reference (sorry Jim ), but, I was assuming this was common knowledge to collectors of this period. If I can find the reference I will post it. But several examples (pictures) shown were of crude rapiers, I assumed this type were more common because the blade would be easier to forge and would require less 'finishing'.

If it wasn't for those old action/adventure movies of my childhood...I probably wouldn't have had a desire to own a rapier......Damn Errol Flynn and his swashbuckling......

Assuming this sword is a poorly constructed wallhanger I will find a use for it.....perhaps a 'one of a kind' car aerial

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2006, 10:58 AM

Hi Katana,
You're right, that scoundrel Errol Flynn and all his swashbuckling is what got me into this obsession!!!

I would be interested to know more on the 'blacksmiths' swords. I think this would apply more to much more pedestrian weapons than rapiers though. In Victorian times of course nobody was wearing rapiers around (only sword canes gentlemen!). During the time of the popularity of the rapier, only nobility were permitted (or could afford) such weapons. Yes, even in those days there were strict weapons controls, and there were even restrictions on the length of the blade permitted (some rapiers had blades up to 42", which were I believe outlawed in England if not mistaken).
By the 18th century, the gentry began wearing the smallsword.

I have been working on finding the famed maker of reproductions during the Victorian period and at last found him !
Ernst Schmidt, who had an atelier in Munich from 1870 (until about 1930!), made outstanding examples of Renaissance and Medieval weapons and armour to satisfy the demands of neoclassic romanticists, who wished to embellish thier estates with these items. Even then these weapons were relatively expensive for authentic pieces, so the age of the 'wallhanger' began! Unfortunately, Schmidts work was so convincing, the age of the 'unscrupulous antique weapons dealer' began as well

and many hopeful buyers were duped when these items were later resold as original antiques.
A good reference on these:
"Arms and Armor from the Atelier of Ernst Schmidt, Munich" Ed. by E.Anderson Mowbray , 1967 (check with Man at Arms magazine, now run by Stuart Mowbray, and articles on this topic in the magazine as well).

Still think this is likely a theatrical piece, and it would seem done at least somewhat in the style of Schmidt. The pieces I have seen illustrations of seem to favor the upward/downward quillon terminals (which of course were never seen on cuphilts as far as I know).

Best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans · 26th November 2006, 11:12 AM

Hi Katana,

It is not very clear on the photo, but is that cup welded or brazed to the blade? Almost looks like it has been arc welded....

Cheers
Chris

katana · 26th November 2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Katana,
You're right, that scoundrel Errol Flynn and all his swashbuckling is what got me into this obsession!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would be interested to know more on the 'blacksmiths' swords. I think this would apply more to much more pedestrian weapons than rapiers though.

.
I'm wondering whether the author may have made assumptions..... perhaps swords of a seemingly functional nature but of lower quality were grouped as 'too good for a wall hanger....not good enough for a swordsmith'. I'm actually thinking that 'theatrical' swords may have entered this catagory......few would associate swords and thespians.......unless you are a Romantic........eh Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Still think this is likely a theatrical piece, and it would seem done at least somewhat in the style of Schmidt. The pieces I have seen illustrations of seem to favor the upward/downward quillon terminals (which of course were never seen on cuphilts as far as I know.
Best regards,
Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

It is not very clear on the photo, but is that cup welded or brazed to the blade? Almost looks like it has been arc welded....

Chris....simply I don't know...but I did noticed the 'join'.....with Jim's comments about the upward/downward terminals which weren't seen as cuphilts......perhaps the cup was a later addition.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2006, 04:41 PM

[QUOTE=katana]

.
I'm wondering whether the author may have made assumptions..... perhaps swords of a seemingly functional nature but of lower quality were grouped as 'too good for a wall hanger....not good enough for a swordsmith'. I'm actually thinking that 'theatrical' swords may have entered this catagory......few would associate swords and thespians.......unless you are a Romantic........eh Jim

Spot on , Katana!!!!

Grrr! Blasted cape caught in the door again!!

Best,
Jim

VANDOO · 26th November 2006, 05:43 PM

AS JIM MENTIONED THE LEGNTH OF RAPIERS WAS RESTRICTED BY ORDER OF THE QUEEN. I CAN PICTURE A MONTY PYTHON LIKE SITUATION AT COURT, I CAN IMAGINE PEOPLE GETTING TRIPPED AND WHACKED WHEN THE GENTELMEN TURNED OR POKED IN THE EYE OR GOOSED WHEN THE GENTELMEN BOWED TO SOMEONE. PERHAPS THE QUEEN HERSELF WAS A VICTIM OF THE DEADLY GOOSE SO BANNED LONG SWORDS IN HER COURT.

IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO BEHAVE IN A PROPER DIGNIFIED ENGLISH MANNER IN SHUCH A SETTING. THUS COURT SWORDS WERE MADE AND BECAME THE RAGE.

Robert · 27th November 2006, 01:17 AM

Here is a sword that I have that fits into the "what is it" category. This sword was covered in layer after layer of aluminium paint when I bought it. The woman who owned it had let her children and grand children carry it around on Halloween. The wooden grip was so dried out that I put a wood preservative on it (I hope this was not a mistake) to help keep it from getting any worse. Her story was that this was brought back from the Philippines after the Spanish American War with other edged weapons (including one with a long wavy blade as she described it) by her uncle but she had already sold the others when I bought this one. There is engraving on the ferrels and the pommel that look a lot like the engraving on the silver hilted dagger that I posted on the forum. The blade is what I would describe as hollow ground. The blade is 39-5/8 inches long, 3/8 inches thick at its thickest point and 1-13/16 inches wide at its widest point. The hilt is 9-1/2 inches long. I was even told by someone else that it was probably made by Ernst Schmidt. If anyone has any thoughts on this piece please post them as I have been trying to identify it for a couple of years with little luck. The blade is not shiny like it looks in the pictures.

27th November 2006, 01:17 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Here is a sword that I have that fits into the "what is it" category. This sword was covered in layer after layer of aluminium paint when I bought it. The woman who owned it had let her children and grand children carry it around on Halloween. The wooden grip was so dried out that I put a wood preservative on it (I hope this was not a mistake) to help keep it from getting any worse. Her story was that this was brought back from the Philippines after the Spanish American War with other edged weapons (including one with a long wavy blade as she described it) by her uncle but she had already sold the others when I bought this one. There is engraving on the ferrels and the pommel that look a lot like the engraving on the silver hilted dagger that I posted on the forum. The blade is what I would describe as hollow ground. The blade is 39-5/8 inches long, 3/8 inches thick at its thickest point and 1-13/16 inches wide at its widest point. The hilt is 9-1/2 inches long. I was even told by someone else that it was probably made by Ernst Schmidt. If anyone has any thoughts on this piece please post them as I have been trying to identify it for a couple of years with little luck. The blade is not shiny like it looks in the pictures. Attached Images

26th November 2006, 10:58 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Katana, You're right, that scoundrel Errol Flynn and all his swashbuckling is what got me into this obsession!!! I would be interested to know more on the 'blacksmiths' swords. I think this would apply more to much more pedestrian weapons than rapiers though. In Victorian times of course nobody was wearing rapiers around (only sword canes gentlemen!). During the time of the popularity of the rapier, only nobility were permitted (or could afford) such weapons. Yes, even in those days there were strict weapons controls, and there were even restrictions on the length of the blade permitted (some rapiers had blades up to 42", which were I believe outlawed in England if not mistaken). By the 18th century, the gentry began wearing the smallsword. I have been working on finding the famed maker of reproductions during the Victorian period and at last found him ! Ernst Schmidt, who had an atelier in Munich from 1870 (until about 1930!), made outstanding examples of Renaissance and Medieval weapons and armour to satisfy the demands of neoclassic romanticists, who wished to embellish thier estates with these items. Even then these weapons were relatively expensive for authentic pieces, so the age of the 'wallhanger' began! Unfortunately, Schmidts work was so convincing, the age of the 'unscrupulous antique weapons dealer' began as well and many hopeful buyers were duped when these items were later resold as original antiques. A good reference on these: "Arms and Armor from the Atelier of Ernst Schmidt, Munich" Ed. by E.Anderson Mowbray , 1967 (check with Man at Arms magazine, now run by Stuart Mowbray, and articles on this topic in the magazine as well). Still think this is likely a theatrical piece, and it would seem done at least somewhat in the style of Schmidt. The pieces I have seen illustrations of seem to favor the upward/downward quillon terminals (which of course were never seen on cuphilts as far as I know). Best regards, Jim

26th November 2006, 11:12 AM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Katana, It is not very clear on the photo, but is that cup welded or brazed to the blade? Almost looks like it has been arc welded.... Cheers Chris

26th November 2006, 04:41 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	[QUOTE=katana] . I'm wondering whether the author may have made assumptions..... perhaps swords of a seemingly functional nature but of lower quality were grouped as 'too good for a wall hanger....not good enough for a swordsmith'. I'm actually thinking that 'theatrical' swords may have entered this catagory......few would associate swords and thespians.......unless you are a Romantic........eh Jim Spot on , Katana!!!! Grrr! Blasted cape caught in the door again!! Best, Jim

26th November 2006, 05:43 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AS JIM MENTIONED THE LEGNTH OF RAPIERS WAS RESTRICTED BY ORDER OF THE QUEEN. I CAN PICTURE A MONTY PYTHON LIKE SITUATION AT COURT, I CAN IMAGINE PEOPLE GETTING TRIPPED AND WHACKED WHEN THE GENTELMEN TURNED OR POKED IN THE EYE OR GOOSED WHEN THE GENTELMEN BOWED TO SOMEONE. PERHAPS THE QUEEN HERSELF WAS A VICTIM OF THE DEADLY GOOSE SO BANNED LONG SWORDS IN HER COURT. IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO BEHAVE IN A PROPER DIGNIFIED ENGLISH MANNER IN SHUCH A SETTING. THUS COURT SWORDS WERE MADE AND BECAME THE RAGE.