Markings or Decorations on Mexican Swords

Matt Branch · 20th November 2006, 04:00 PM

Hi Jim, nice to hear from you, I will check the local librarys for that book, is there a photo of the sword in the book?
I have looked for German Swords and Sword Makers and no book store has one nor do the librarys within 200 miles of me.
On the thread I posted on the German Language forum on SFI a gentleman directed me to the Klingenmuseum, I have sent them some photos of my sword, they said that they may be able to help me.
I found a teacher at a college in South Dakota who knows the Aragon family in Oaxaca and I sent them an e-mail but have not heard back from them.
The attached photos; my great grandfather's living room around 1885. I hade to scan it to get the picture of my gg grandfather holding the sword and is from the Civil War.
My sword is on top of the piano in the upper left and the picture is on the lower right of the piano.
Thanks again for all of you're help!
Regards
Matt

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2006, 02:09 AM

Hi Matt,
The title "German Swords and Sword Makers" by Richard H. Bezdek is available on Amazon books.
Outstanding and exciting photos of the sword in your grandfathers possession! It is so remarkable to see one of these swords that is so faultlessly provenanced. Nice follow up research you are doing as well.
There is a photo of the Najera sword in the book, but as always very poor quality. Possibly contacting that museum they will furnish a photo.
Thanks for keeping this going and keeping us up with the research as well as sharing the great photos!
I think your shot of the sword against the clouded sky is a masterpiece!
Pulitzer prize stuff!!

All the best,
Jim

Matt Branch · 23rd November 2006, 07:40 PM

Hi Jim,
Here is the Museum's online image, it is under 2 captions, one says the sword of Lts. Col. Nagera who lost the fight to Hayes. The other says, a presentation sword given to Maj. Hawkins for the defense of Fort Brown.
I'm guessing that the top sword Was Najera's, the hilt is the same as the etched swords on my blade.

I wonder if you have noticed if diffrent bladesmiths shape and size their fullers and ricasso in the same way on all they make, like a signiture, or do they vary due to the technology of the time?

The fullers on my blade stop farther away from the hilt than those on the sword in Spanish Weapons in Colonial...
Just wondering if this may have been a regional or specific makers trait.

Thanks again for all the help.
Best Regards
Matt

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2006, 05:16 AM

Hi Matt,
The top sword is indeed the Najera sabre, nice work on locating the photo!

Interesting idea about fullering being distinctive to a particular maker. It would seem that in general the forms were very similar in accordance to the technology or popular style at the time. It seems there was always a great deal of innovation and testing being done on swords, ironically much beyond thier being superceded by firearms. There are instances where certain blade forms used key cross section patterns in the work of some makers during certain periods, at least in some research I can recall in studying British cavalry swords, but not with enough consistancy for certainty. I think any variation in the fullers as you mention would be more inclined to deviation in manufacturing process, possibly subcontracted work, as became more often the case in advancing industrialization in centers such as Solingen.

I still think the PDL engraved in script is an interesting anomaly worthy of more research. I am waiting for the Bezdek book myself in hopes there might be something in it concerning that. There is a lot of data published in Germany on the history of Solingen, but without translated material, not very accessible. I know that the journals of the German arms and armour society which go back into the early years of the 20th century have articles on German makers, hopefully the Bezdek book will reference.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2006, 09:36 AM

Hi Matt,
Still at it here!
In reviewing some interesting data on American swords. One of the earlier issues of regulation military swords for the U.S. was the M1833 which was essentially the same three bar hilt, adopted from the British M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. Apparantly although the well established maker of U.S. swords, Ames Co. of Chicopee, Mass. had a contract for these, they were substantially imported to the U.S. from several foreign makers by Tiffany & Co. of New York (these were typically unmarked as the buyer usually placed thier own name on the swords in these cases). It is suggested that the makers possibly included Robt. Mole of Birmingham, England along with two Solingen makers; Schnitzler & Kirschbaum and our Peter D. Luneschloss (PDL).

It is interesting that Albaugh ("Handbook of Confederate Swords") notes that many of the M1833 examples saw service with Confederate officers later in the Civil War. We have already established that PDL was a well established supplier of weapons actually to both sides during the Civil War, but in every instance of these, clearly much later than your sword which falls into the M1833 period, the marking is the PDL stamped in oval cartouche.

In further references concerning an Ames made M1833 dragoon sabre, it is noted that markings on the blade seem to have been engraved in cursive script, rather than stamped as was commonly the practice during those times (in the period 1834-1839).

With these sundry references which I found through various online searches, it would seem that the established activity of importing blades from Solingen, notably from P.D.Luneschloss during the period suggested in the 1830's may offer clues pertaining to your sword. Obviously with the complexities that appear to prevail with the U.S. swords and subcontracting to Solingen for them, as well as the note on the use of cursive script, despite appearing on the American made example M1833, it seems that our PDL may have also adopted that practice at the time. It would be too much to presume that a sword of this period with these initials at the forte of the blade, where makers typically identify thier work, would be those of an individual, particularly on a Mexican sword.

Again, while these observations and suggestions are derived from material I have read in various online searches, and obviously are speculative on my part, it seems that they may carry a degree of plausibility worth considering and researching further.

As always, very much enjoying the adventure!!

Thanks Matt!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2006, 02:19 AM

Hi Matt,
Just a brief

update!
Going through the Wallace Collection catalog on an entirely different quest, came across p,268 #A520, a rehilted sword with a blade dating c.1770, by P.Knecht and with the 'Spanish motto' draw me not without reason etc.
This of course supports the theory that these blades were indeed from Solingen.
Best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 11th December 2006, 05:35 AM

Hello Jim! I've got a Colonial Spanish sword with the 3 bar hilted guard, a solid brass lion hilt and straight Spanish broadsword-style sword with the 3 fullers. It is made by a German maker identified via Bezdek (I'm at work and can't remember their names) as from the 1800-1837 period and it has the Spanish motto "Draw me without reason,etc,etc."
The hilt has the classic primative line decorations to the bars, so typical of Spanish colonial. Very interesting discussion here.

Matt Branch · 27th December 2006, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Matt,
Still at it here!
In reviewing some interesting data on American swords. One of the earlier issues of regulation military swords for the U.S. was the M1833 which was essentially the same three bar hilt, adopted from the British M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. Apparantly although the well established maker of U.S. swords, Ames Co. of Chicopee, Mass. had a contract for these, they were substantially imported to the U.S. from several foreign makers by Tiffany & Co. of New York (these were typically unmarked as the buyer usually placed thier own name on the swords in these cases). It is suggested that the makers possibly included Robt. Mole of Birmingham, England along with two Solingen makers; Schnitzler & Kirschbaum and our Peter D. Luneschloss (PDL).

It is interesting that Albaugh ("Handbook of Confederate Swords") notes that many of the M1833 examples saw service with Confederate officers later in the Civil War. We have already established that PDL was a well established supplier of weapons actually to both sides during the Civil War, but in every instance of these, clearly much later than your sword which falls into the M1833 period, the marking is the PDL stamped in oval cartouche.

In further references concerning an Ames made M1833 dragoon sabre, it is noted that markings on the blade seem to have been engraved in cursive script, rather than stamped as was commonly the practice during those times (in the period 1834-1839).

With these sundry references which I found through various online searches, it would seem that the established activity of importing blades from Solingen, notably from P.D.Luneschloss during the period suggested in the 1830's may offer clues pertaining to your sword. Obviously with the complexities that appear to prevail with the U.S. swords and subcontracting to Solingen for them, as well as the note on the use of cursive script, despite appearing on the American made example M1833, it seems that our PDL may have also adopted that practice at the time. It would be too much to presume that a sword of this period with these initials at the forte of the blade, where makers typically identify thier work, would be those of an individual, particularly on a Mexican sword.

Again, while these observations and suggestions are derived from material I have read in various online searches, and obviously are speculative on my part, it seems that they may carry a degree of plausibility worth considering and researching further.

As always, very much enjoying the adventure!!

Thanks Matt!

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
I've been trying to find the information you wrote here so I could document it, and I'm having trouble finding it after many searches.
Do you have a copy of any of Albaugh's 3 books on confererats swords? I can't afford all the books I've found.
Do you remember where it is recorded about the PDL etched or inscribed in cursive blades?
Is the Wallace Collection a book? When I do a search, there are thousands of hits but not a sword collection.
I finally got an e-mail from Guerillmo Aragon and sent him some pictures, have not heard back yet.
I have not heard back from the Klingenmeuseum yet either.
I did find a book that was written by one of my ancestors and published with a Michigan historical society that mentions the sword and pistols in my g great grandfathers house right after the Cival War.
I'm still trying to figure out the decorations, still can't find anyting like them,
I can't travel to the museums with good collections.
Thanks again Jim for all you're help, got any suggestions on where I can find information on the decorations?
Regards
Matt

Matt Branch · 10th January 2007, 04:20 PM

I have e-mailed a link to my thread to some people to see the photos of my sword in hopes of more information on the decoration. I wanted to post a couple more photos of diffrent details.

20th November 2006, 04:00 PM	#1
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	Civil War photo Hi Jim, nice to hear from you, I will check the local librarys for that book, is there a photo of the sword in the book? I have looked for German Swords and Sword Makers and no book store has one nor do the librarys within 200 miles of me. On the thread I posted on the German Language forum on SFI a gentleman directed me to the Klingenmuseum, I have sent them some photos of my sword, they said that they may be able to help me. I found a teacher at a college in South Dakota who knows the Aragon family in Oaxaca and I sent them an e-mail but have not heard back from them. The attached photos; my great grandfather's living room around 1885. I hade to scan it to get the picture of my gg grandfather holding the sword and is from the Civil War. My sword is on top of the piano in the upper left and the picture is on the lower right of the piano. Thanks again for all of you're help! Regards Matt Attached Images

23rd November 2006, 07:40 PM	#3
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	Najera Hi Jim, Here is the Museum's online image, it is under 2 captions, one says the sword of Lts. Col. Nagera who lost the fight to Hayes. The other says, a presentation sword given to Maj. Hawkins for the defense of Fort Brown. I'm guessing that the top sword Was Najera's, the hilt is the same as the etched swords on my blade. I wonder if you have noticed if diffrent bladesmiths shape and size their fullers and ricasso in the same way on all they make, like a signiture, or do they vary due to the technology of the time? The fullers on my blade stop farther away from the hilt than those on the sword in Spanish Weapons in Colonial... Just wondering if this may have been a regional or specific makers trait. Thanks again for all the help. Best Regards Matt Attached Images

10th January 2007, 04:20 PM	#9
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	some more photos I have e-mailed a link to my thread to some people to see the photos of my sword in hopes of more information on the decoration. I wanted to post a couple more photos of diffrent details. Attached Images

21st November 2006, 02:09 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Matt, The title "German Swords and Sword Makers" by Richard H. Bezdek is available on Amazon books. Outstanding and exciting photos of the sword in your grandfathers possession! It is so remarkable to see one of these swords that is so faultlessly provenanced. Nice follow up research you are doing as well. There is a photo of the Najera sword in the book, but as always very poor quality. Possibly contacting that museum they will furnish a photo. Thanks for keeping this going and keeping us up with the research as well as sharing the great photos! I think your shot of the sword against the clouded sky is a masterpiece! Pulitzer prize stuff!! All the best, Jim

25th November 2006, 05:16 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Matt, The top sword is indeed the Najera sabre, nice work on locating the photo! Interesting idea about fullering being distinctive to a particular maker. It would seem that in general the forms were very similar in accordance to the technology or popular style at the time. It seems there was always a great deal of innovation and testing being done on swords, ironically much beyond thier being superceded by firearms. There are instances where certain blade forms used key cross section patterns in the work of some makers during certain periods, at least in some research I can recall in studying British cavalry swords, but not with enough consistancy for certainty. I think any variation in the fullers as you mention would be more inclined to deviation in manufacturing process, possibly subcontracted work, as became more often the case in advancing industrialization in centers such as Solingen. I still think the PDL engraved in script is an interesting anomaly worthy of more research. I am waiting for the Bezdek book myself in hopes there might be something in it concerning that. There is a lot of data published in Germany on the history of Solingen, but without translated material, not very accessible. I know that the journals of the German arms and armour society which go back into the early years of the 20th century have articles on German makers, hopefully the Bezdek book will reference. All the best, Jim

26th November 2006, 09:36 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Matt, Still at it here! In reviewing some interesting data on American swords. One of the earlier issues of regulation military swords for the U.S. was the M1833 which was essentially the same three bar hilt, adopted from the British M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. Apparantly although the well established maker of U.S. swords, Ames Co. of Chicopee, Mass. had a contract for these, they were substantially imported to the U.S. from several foreign makers by Tiffany & Co. of New York (these were typically unmarked as the buyer usually placed thier own name on the swords in these cases). It is suggested that the makers possibly included Robt. Mole of Birmingham, England along with two Solingen makers; Schnitzler & Kirschbaum and our Peter D. Luneschloss (PDL). It is interesting that Albaugh ("Handbook of Confederate Swords") notes that many of the M1833 examples saw service with Confederate officers later in the Civil War. We have already established that PDL was a well established supplier of weapons actually to both sides during the Civil War, but in every instance of these, clearly much later than your sword which falls into the M1833 period, the marking is the PDL stamped in oval cartouche. In further references concerning an Ames made M1833 dragoon sabre, it is noted that markings on the blade seem to have been engraved in cursive script, rather than stamped as was commonly the practice during those times (in the period 1834-1839). With these sundry references which I found through various online searches, it would seem that the established activity of importing blades from Solingen, notably from P.D.Luneschloss during the period suggested in the 1830's may offer clues pertaining to your sword. Obviously with the complexities that appear to prevail with the U.S. swords and subcontracting to Solingen for them, as well as the note on the use of cursive script, despite appearing on the American made example M1833, it seems that our PDL may have also adopted that practice at the time. It would be too much to presume that a sword of this period with these initials at the forte of the blade, where makers typically identify thier work, would be those of an individual, particularly on a Mexican sword. Again, while these observations and suggestions are derived from material I have read in various online searches, and obviously are speculative on my part, it seems that they may carry a degree of plausibility worth considering and researching further. As always, very much enjoying the adventure!! Thanks Matt! All the best, Jim

11th December 2006, 02:19 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Matt, Just a brief update! Going through the Wallace Collection catalog on an entirely different quest, came across p,268 #A520, a rehilted sword with a blade dating c.1770, by P.Knecht and with the 'Spanish motto' draw me not without reason etc. This of course supports the theory that these blades were indeed from Solingen. Best regards, Jim

11th December 2006, 05:35 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Jim! I've got a Colonial Spanish sword with the 3 bar hilted guard, a solid brass lion hilt and straight Spanish broadsword-style sword with the 3 fullers. It is made by a German maker identified via Bezdek (I'm at work and can't remember their names) as from the 1800-1837 period and it has the Spanish motto "Draw me without reason,etc,etc." The hilt has the classic primative line decorations to the bars, so typical of Spanish colonial. Very interesting discussion here.