Indian Katar

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Lew,



Nice katar. No decoration, but maybe a dot marking – am I right? If I am right, it maybe could come from the Bikaner armoury.

Jens

I am pretty sure this katar is from Bikaner it also has a W11 engraved on the side bar which I was told came from a famous British arms collection the Rotunda at Woolwich that was on display for many years until it was broken up in the middle of the 20th century.

http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/green...ich/rotunda.htm
http://www.oldtowns.co.uk/Kent/woolwich.htm
http://viewfinder.english-heritage....76285&=&JS=True



Lew

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Brian, very well described - thank you very much.

Hi Lew, I can't say, 'if you have seen one, you have seen them all', but have a look.

[Lew]

Almost twins! Definately from the same amoury.

Lew

[fernando]

This might be nonsense but, wthin the relative narrowness of the grip between the sword ( tulwar ... ) and the katar, i would adventure that katars may have even got narrower handles than swords as, in the sword you have to be able to swing your wrist, whereas in katars both your hand and forearm are completely aligned inside the long bars ... even sometimes tyed with bandages. So you wouldn't need a "tolerance factor".
I am posting pictures of a ( poor condition ) katar which, in my unitiated eyes, is similar to the one shown by Aurangzeb in this thread opening. The blade is 10 inches long but, in the contrary, the grip section in this one hardly measures a critical 6 cms. I have being reluctant to abandon the boy's katar version as, the shop owner whom i bought it from, is a relatively known weapons historian-writer and has an imense collection. Whereas he didn't ponder all this time on the ( some ) Indian peoples actually slim hands, and just decided to call this piece an adolescent specimen for comercial purposes, is something i find bitter to digest. But as we say over here, even the best cloth gets stained.
Kind regards
fernando

[Tim Simmons]

I have to agree with Fernando. I just cannot believe that a large amout of adult Indian WARRIORS with training and so on were only the size of the average modern western teenager. Some weapons may have been used with a glove but that still leaves a huge question about all the others.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I have to agree with Fernando. I just cannot believe that a large amout of adult Indian WARRIORS with training and so on were only the size of the average modern western teenager. Some weapons may have been used with a glove but that still leaves a huge question about all the others.

Tim

I have been in many old homes dating back to the 1750s and the door frames in these homes are quite low 5'7-8 inches high maybe even lower. You just have to face it most people who lived 250 years ago were short. Here in the states we see a large number of immigrants coming out of Equador and Peru my son who is 5ft 5 inches towers over most of the adult men and the women are tiny 4ft 8 inches tall. During WWII many Americans seemed huge next to the Japanese. You also can see this trait in many of the Ghurkas from Nepal old kukris have small hilts for small handed people. As the old saying goes if the shoe fits wear it or if the katar fits you must acquit Click on this link! I also found this in my searches.

Height and weight of early 20th century Filipino men


J. E. Murray A1

A1 Department of Economics, University of Toledo, Ohio, USA


Abstract:

Background: Recent anthropometric studies of Filipinos have concentrated on women and children. While present-day studies of Filipino men are few, scattered sources of historical height and weight samples exist and can be studied to estimate a rough baseline for comparison, as well as to study trends in the past. Aim: This paper estimates heights and weights of men in the Philippines about a century ago. Height-by-age profiles and comparisons to contemporary populations in south-east Asia as well as present day Filipinos provide context. Subjects and methods: One sample consisted of 843 prisoners from throughout the islands, who were measured by an American anthropologist in Manila. A previously overlooked published source included measurements of 1016 seamen, police and prison guards, and civil servants in Manila. A contemporary source also measured 100 relatively remote Igorrote in Luzon. Results: Average heights fell in a relatively narrow range of 1.60-1.62 m, except for police who were subject to a minimum height requirement. Body mass index (BMI) fell in a broader range of 18.24-21.26. Some regional variation was also evident in the prisoner sample. Height-by-age profiles suggested some improvement in net nutritional conditions over the century. Conclusions: Heights of turn of the century Filipino men were not very different from men elsewhere in south-east Asia, nor from present-day Filipino men. To understand trends in heights over the longer term more samples of men in the present-day Philippines would be desirable.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.webmd.com/content/article...531713CA348%7D

So why is it so hard to believe that 18th century Indian warriors would be any bigger than other peoples from Europe and South east Asia?



Lew

[Tim Simmons]

It would be interesting to compere the hilts with medieval and later hilts of some of the shorter European people.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I have to agree with Fernando. I just cannot believe that a large amout of adult Indian WARRIORS with training and so on were only the size of the average modern western teenager. Some weapons may have been used with a glove but that still leaves a huge question about all the others.

Hi Tim.

Frederick Wilkinson Quotes P. Bramley who was the Deputy Inspector-General of the North Western Provinces and Oudh Police in the late 19th century, on Pg 190 of
Swords and Hilt Weapons 'Mr Bramley also comments on the hilt of the talwar, pointing out that for the average European hand the grip feels cramped and uncomfortable since the average Indian hand is smaller than that of a European'

On a side note, most of the real skeletons found in anatomy labs came from India (I think this was stopped in the 1970's), because of this there have been many upset first year medical students thinking that "their bones" were from children which was not the case.
Europeans on the other hand, were similar size to us now during the middle ages, we only began shrinking when the over crowded and poor nutritional conditions occured during the industrial revolution.

hope this is useful.
Jeff