LOHAR - Solving The Mistery

Bill M · 1st November 2006, 01:50 AM

Don't take a lohar to a gun fight. Nor a knife fight. Nor a sword fight -- unless they are serving iced sugar drinks. Only then will you and your lohar be appreciated.

Sugar or ice? Why not? Never could understand how they were used anyhow.

But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy.

The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point.

I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall?

VANDOO · 1st November 2006, 03:17 AM

THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE.

I ALSO WONDER HOW MANY ICE HOUSES THEY HAVE OVER THERE AND HOW POPULAR SNOW CONES AND BLOCKS OF ICE ARE AND HOW FAR BACK IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE AND CONSUMED. LOHARS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY LONG WHILE AND ARE SURELY THE WORLDS MOST DECORATED, FANCY DANGEROUS LOOKING ICE PICK IF THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR.

I WILL WAIT UNTIL BETTER PROOF THAN THE WORD OF ONE PERSON IS AVAILABLE BEFORE I AM CONVINCED THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. A INTERESTING IDEA BUT ONE WHICH I WON'T PUT MUCH CREDENCE IN AT PRESENT WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF.
THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.

RSWORD · 1st November 2006, 03:36 AM

The question I have in regards to the ice pick theory is how long have big blocks of ice been available in markets on a large enough scale that required a specialized tool such as the Lohar.(not to be confused with The Google) Maybe as long as refrigeration has been around? Are there any provenanced examples of Lohar dating back to 19th century? Would such an early example lend credence to the lohar having some prior function that later evolved into an ice pick when it had become obsolete in its original design?

Bill M · 1st November 2006, 06:20 AM

Yeah,

What VANDOO SAID, and RSWORD also!

Radu?

Yannis · 1st November 2006, 09:59 AM

Here are my 0.02 euros: I have touched few lohars, I owned one for long time. The Tajiks call it Dos. As I learned there it was a weapon. Now days they make new fancy ones for “tourist” market. Of course the only “tourists” in Afghanistan are soldiers of ISAF and some civilian NGOs. The ones with only one side decorated are modern.

On the other hand, Radu’s info (hi Radu, we missed you

) has a logic base. Summer in Kabul is hot as hell. Electricity even today is rare in the center of city and it is not spread in the country. But the high mountains around have ice all the summer, so it is still business to sell ice. I think now it is more a product than a harvest from the mountains but still the traditions are not gone.

Tim Simmons · 1st November 2006, 05:20 PM

Sounds about right to me. I have a Somali sugar axe well an adze really. An impressive thing untill you find out it is a piece of kitchen ware. Quite decorative I will show it when I find it.

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Sounds about right to me. I have a Somali sugar axe well an adze really. An impressive thing untill you find out it is a piece of kitchen ware. Quite decorative I will show it when I find it.

Thanks Timm, would love to see "the thing"

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 07:19 PM

[QUOTE=VANDOO]THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE.

I ALSO WONDER HOW MANY ICE HOUSES THEY HAVE OVER THERE AND HOW POPULAR SNOW CONES AND BLOCKS OF ICE ARE AND HOW FAR BACK IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE AND CONSUMED. LOHARS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY LONG WHILE AND ARE SURELY THE WORLDS MOST DECORATED, FANCY DANGEROUS LOOKING ICE PICK IF THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR.

I WILL WAIT UNTIL BETTER PROOF THAN THE WORD OF ONE PERSON IS AVAILABLE BEFORE I AM CONVINCED THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. A INTERESTING IDEA BUT ONE WHICH I WON'T PUT MUCH CREDENCE IN AT PRESENT WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF.
THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.[/QUOTE]

Pace your enthusiasm , capitalised letters

I too doubt there were ice thongs too , Vandoo, but I believe in the ice pick idea! I have a feeling when they chopped the ice blocks from the glaciers edge on the mountains they used different picks and techniques then at the bottom in the valley inside the market or at home. Probably not even the same person the iceman vs. the market person. Its a big difference when you chop a two hundred lbs. block of ice or when you pick for a cone, a daily's worth or shave some ice. You cant give a bone cleaver to an eye surgeon

Tim Simmons · 1st November 2006, 07:38 PM

Google images. Sugar hammers. The first three examples, priceless

I would think sugar may still be sold in one big lump to the few remaining nomad/semi nomads today.

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Google images. Sugar hammers. The first three examples, priceless

I would think sugar may still be sold in one big lump to the few remaining nomad/semi nomads today.

I am sure its a completely obsolete tool by now but thats exactly why the latest examples were leaning more towards the wall decoration, like the Lohar. Lets not get carried in this direction with the ice picks: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Co..._12p.widec.jpg

Tim Simmons · 1st November 2006, 08:04 PM

I do not think there was much call for ice in your martini

. Certainly sugar for tea, I think tea is the thing there rather than coffee. With all these shared social pass times some very decorative paraphernalia develops.

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 08:56 PM

I stumbled across two images of Aghani people harvesting ice at the glacier's lip, Vandoo, my friend, this one is for you

http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters1.jpg
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters2.jpg

katana · 1st November 2006, 09:06 PM

.....I think that Leon Trotsky would vouch for the lethal qualities of an everyday ice pick.... so the injury potential of the Lohar IMHO would be greater?

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st November 2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy.

The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point.
I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall?

Exactly, in the late times most of them were made exactly to be used as wall ornaments he did say that! By Afghans themselves and obviously many found their way out once travelers observed "the mysterious object" and loved the souvenir.

tom hyle · 4th December 2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall?

I doubt that. More likely because they were meant to be worn on a body, where only one side shows. It is a common (of course not universal) practice for blades to have a front decorated side and a back plain side. On saxes it was quite prominent, and it is also seen frequently on earlier modern European kitchen knives (which are marked and spine-swedged from the thumb side; medieval ones were often grooved and inlayed on the same side only.) and swords (commonly marked from the hand side, if on one side only. Machetes have often been deliberately marked as knives). Only one side shows when you're wearing one.
The ice/candy pick seems realistic, and I don't know that in preindustrial environments ice and candy would be considered a domain of children.
As for an icepick as a weapon; that's pretty much all they're currently known as in N America.

1st November 2006, 01:50 AM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Don't take a lohar to a gun fight. Nor a knife fight. Nor a sword fight -- unless they are serving iced sugar drinks. Only then will you and your lohar be appreciated. Sugar or ice? Why not? Never could understand how they were used anyhow. But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy. The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point. I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall? Last edited by Bill Marsh; 1st November 2006 at 02:02 AM.

1st November 2006, 07:19 PM	#8
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	[QUOTE=VANDOO]THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE. I ALSO WONDER HOW MANY ICE HOUSES THEY HAVE OVER THERE AND HOW POPULAR SNOW CONES AND BLOCKS OF ICE ARE AND HOW FAR BACK IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE AND CONSUMED. LOHARS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY LONG WHILE AND ARE SURELY THE WORLDS MOST DECORATED, FANCY DANGEROUS LOOKING ICE PICK IF THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE. I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR. I WILL WAIT UNTIL BETTER PROOF THAN THE WORD OF ONE PERSON IS AVAILABLE BEFORE I AM CONVINCED THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. A INTERESTING IDEA BUT ONE WHICH I WON'T PUT MUCH CREDENCE IN AT PRESENT WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF. THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.[/QUOTE] Pace your enthusiasm , capitalised letters I too doubt there were ice thongs too , Vandoo, but I believe in the ice pick idea! I have a feeling when they chopped the ice blocks from the glaciers edge on the mountains they used different picks and techniques then at the bottom in the valley inside the market or at home. Probably not even the same person the iceman vs. the market person. Its a big difference when you chop a two hundred lbs. block of ice or when you pick for a cone, a daily's worth or shave some ice. You cant give a bone cleaver to an eye surgeon Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 1st November 2006 at 07:35 PM.

1st November 2006, 03:17 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE LOHAR I HAVE HANDLED WOULD MAKE A BETTER WEAPON THAN AN ICE PICK OR ICE SHAVER. THE COMMON ICE PICK IS MUCH EASIER TO CARRY AND QUITE CAPABLE OF EASILY SEPARATEING A 500 POUND BLOCK OF ICE INTO SMALLER CHUNKS. I HAD TWO RELATIVES WHO RAN LARGE ICE HOUSES BACK EAST AND SAW HOW FAST THE ICE MEN COULD MAKE THE PROPER SIZE AND WEIGHT OF ICE BLOCK TO FILL THE ORDER. THE ICE SHAVERS I HAVE SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD USUALLY WORK ON THE PRINCIPAL OF A WOOD PLANE BUT ARE DESIGNED FOR ICE INSTEAD. IF THE LOHAR IS THE AFAGHAN VERSION OF THE COMMON ICE PICK I WONDER WHAT THE ICE TONGS THEY USE TO CARRY LARGE BLOCKS OF ICE LOOK LIKE THEY MUST BE VERY IMPRESSIVE. I ALSO WONDER HOW MANY ICE HOUSES THEY HAVE OVER THERE AND HOW POPULAR SNOW CONES AND BLOCKS OF ICE ARE AND HOW FAR BACK IN HISTORY THEY HAVE BEEN MADE AND CONSUMED. LOHARS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY LONG WHILE AND ARE SURELY THE WORLDS MOST DECORATED, FANCY DANGEROUS LOOKING ICE PICK IF THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE. I WONDER IF SOMEONE IS HAVING THEIR LEG PULLED OR IF THAT TRULY IS THEIR USE IN AFGANISTAN? IN ANY CASE I WOULD MUCH PREFER A REGULAR ICE PICK AND ICE SHAVER TO TRYING TO DO IT WITH A LOHAR. I WILL WAIT UNTIL BETTER PROOF THAN THE WORD OF ONE PERSON IS AVAILABLE BEFORE I AM CONVINCED THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN WRONG ALL THESE YEARS. A INTERESTING IDEA BUT ONE WHICH I WON'T PUT MUCH CREDENCE IN AT PRESENT WITHOUT FURTHER PROOF. THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS ON THIS POST I DO NOT INTEND TO ATTACK ANYONE.

1st November 2006, 03:36 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	The question I have in regards to the ice pick theory is how long have big blocks of ice been available in markets on a large enough scale that required a specialized tool such as the Lohar.(not to be confused with The Google) Maybe as long as refrigeration has been around? Are there any provenanced examples of Lohar dating back to 19th century? Would such an early example lend credence to the lohar having some prior function that later evolved into an ice pick when it had become obsolete in its original design?

1st November 2006, 06:20 AM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Yeah, What VANDOO SAID, and RSWORD also! Radu?

1st November 2006, 09:59 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Here are my 0.02 euros: I have touched few lohars, I owned one for long time. The Tajiks call it Dos. As I learned there it was a weapon. Now days they make new fancy ones for “tourist” market. Of course the only “tourists” in Afghanistan are soldiers of ISAF and some civilian NGOs. The ones with only one side decorated are modern. On the other hand, Radu’s info (hi Radu, we missed you ) has a logic base. Summer in Kabul is hot as hell. Electricity even today is rare in the center of city and it is not spread in the country. But the high mountains around have ice all the summer, so it is still business to sell ice. I think now it is more a product than a harvest from the mountains but still the traditions are not gone.

1st November 2006, 05:20 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Sounds about right to me. I have a Somali sugar axe well an adze really. An impressive thing untill you find out it is a piece of kitchen ware. Quite decorative I will show it when I find it.

1st November 2006, 07:38 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Google images. Sugar hammers. The first three examples, priceless I would think sugar may still be sold in one big lump to the few remaining nomad/semi nomads today.

1st November 2006, 08:04 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I do not think there was much call for ice in your martini . Certainly sugar for tea, I think tea is the thing there rather than coffee. With all these shared social pass times some very decorative paraphernalia develops.

1st November 2006, 08:56 PM	#12
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	I stumbled across two images of Aghani people harvesting ice at the glacier's lip, Vandoo, my friend, this one is for you http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters1.jpg http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archi...ceCutters2.jpg

1st November 2006, 09:06 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	.....I think that Leon Trotsky would vouch for the lethal qualities of an everyday ice pick.... so the injury potential of the Lohar IMHO would be greater?