katar forging

[delor]

Hi everyone,

I've been off for a long time, so I will introduce myself again.
I'm a french blacksmith, mostly involved in oriental blades forging. By the way, I really enjoy the huge amount of informations, advices and pictures found in this forum.
I have to make an indian katar, and unfortunately never had the change to get one and closely look at it. Could some of you help me by answering the following question :
- are katar usually forged as a sigle piece (blade and handle sides), or is there some welding somewhere between blade and handle? I think there is some but I can't exactly figure where, by looking at the available pictures.

(I must say that I'm not a fake maker. I like to keep the old smithing technics alive, and indo persian blades are most of the time masterpieces of great interest).

Thanks a lot

Regards

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, are you out there!!
Jens has accomplished some of the most definitive research on the katar, along with Brian Isaac, as well as some of the best discussions concerning Indian metallurgy, so I hope they will come in on this.

Delor,
Welcome!!
I very much admire your straightforwardness and the responsible approach you are taking toward producing an example of the katar. It is extemely encouraging to see a craftsman working to preserve the magnificent metalworking skills that existed in India when these weapons were made.
I would suggest, if possible as I know you are in France, to contact a publication here in the U.S. titled "Blade" magazine. It seems there have been numerous articles on authentic forging of such blades, but I am uncertain of issues etc. I will add anything further I can find.
All best wishes and success on your project,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi delor,

The answer is easy – yes and no. The older katars, and some of the newer are made in one piece, or possible in several pieces and forged together, but a number of the newer katars are made in more than one piece and put together, you can detect rather easily as the side guards and the cross bars tend to be a bit loose. In other cases an old blade has been used, so the side guards and the cross bars must, of course, have been made by itself, and a hole made for the blade. When later, gold decorations are added to the side guards, the way it was made is hidden.

I also have a theory that at least some of the hilts with more elaborate carvings, may have been made using cire perdu, but so far it is a theory.

Why don’t you try to ask a museum with an Oriental arms collection, maybe they will let you examine their katars?

Good luck

[Philip]

No, I am not referring to the Mason-Dixon Line

I have polished and restored a number of katars over the years, all antiques. There seem to be two major types, based on their configuration and decoration. What I call northern appear to be associated with the Persianized, Islamic culture of the Mughals. The weapons tend to have wootz blades, and the surface decoration tends towards gold or silver koftgari on the sidebars and grips. When suspended by their grips and struck with a mallet or similar object, many of these emit a beautiful, clear ringing sound. Without ever having the chance to Xray or Magnaflux one of these to verify, I TEND TO BELIEVE FROM THIS OBSERVATION that they may be of one piece construction (insofar as the blade / sidebar assembly goes).

What I call southern types have a mode of construction and decoration which parallels the sword types of the older, Hindu cultural stratum of India. Their blades are often rivetted between a pair of langets or projections from the hilt assembly, which is typically decorated with deep chiselling or a filigree-type openwork. Blades on these katars are sometimes of wootz, but more often than not are plain crucible steel and occasionally a folded laminate of hard and soft materials, much like most Far Eastern blades are constructed.

I admit that my labelling the two types "northern" and "southern" may be disputed from a strictly ethnographic standpoint, but since the Persized Mughal culture was strongest in northern India, I use this dichotomy here simply for the sake of convenience.

[Lew]

Hi All

I have have had a few katars over the years and have notice welds along where the side bar turns down and it resembles a dove tail joint and on others a V weld about one third down the side bar just below the cross bars.

Lew

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi delor,

To morrow I will try to get some pictures together, to show you what i mean.

[delor]

Thanks to all of you, these informations will greatly help me. Jens, I will appreciate if you can get some more pictures, as I'll start working on this project very soon.
Jim, I'm glad to see you agree with my approach. Maybe I'll post a picture here when the work is done, as far as it's not against the forum policies.
One more question : what is the average size of a katar ? I suppose it has to be quite large, otherwise the cross bars wouldn't fit strongly enough in the hand. Am I right ?

Regards,
Bernard

[Lew]

Originally Posted by delor

One more question : what is the average size of a katar ? I suppose it has to be quite large, otherwise the cross bars wouldn't fit strongly enough in the hand. Am I right ?

Regards,
Bernard

Bernard

8-9 inch blades are pretty standard but I have seen small ones with 6 inch blades and larger ones with 10-12 inch blades. Be sure to measure the buyers hand most old katars were made for smaller warriors therefore I often find that I can't fit my four fingers in without getting them squished. I have a large hand though.

Lew

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Bernhard,

If you want to sell the katar on this forum you should put it on the Swap Forum. If in doubt, read the forum rules. Or ask one of the moderators.

I guess you know already that there is a lot of different katar types, as well as sizes, and I think one of the problems you will have, is to get the proportions right, even if you can make someone measure a katar from his collection with all the measurers you will need. I have seen them from 20 cm and upwards where you are not sure if it s katar or a sword, and then there is the gauntlet sword – but that is another matter, although related to the katar. See Stone, A Glossary… Page 347, figure 434, number 15. The longest blade is close to 100 cm.
I think, to get it right, you will have to buy a cheap katar, to be able to hold it in your hand, to get the right size and feeling.

I am working on the post I promised you, but it will have to wait till later to day.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Katar. North Rajasthan. Length 51 cm, blade 26 cm. The katar is forged in one piece with no decoration at all. The blade with a big armour-piercing tip. When the side guard is hit, the sound is high and sounds like a tuning fork – for a long time. I doubt very much that you can get such a sound, had the katar not been forged in one piece, also there is not sign that it has been put together from several pieces, and no decoration to ‘hide’ that it has been put together.

Double katar. North India. Length 42 cm, blade 23 cm, length of inner blade 20 cm. The outer blade is scabbard for the inner blade, and gold decoration conceals any joint. It is however clear, that the inner blade is far older than the outer blade, so at least the inner blade must have been put into the ‘hilt’ after the hilt was made. The outer blade was made in two parts, one side of the blade and the edges, and the other side, the ‘lid’. It is important to notice that the ends of the side guards are marked, so the inner katar always will be put in the ‘scabbard’ in one way only. If anything else will be tried the inner katar will get stuck. Hardly any sound when the side guards are hit, and the sound stops very quickly.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Katar. Tanjore, South India. Length 51 cm, blade 33 cm. The hilt and the blade have been made in two parts and riveted together. The side guards are decorated with fish and steel pearls. When the side guard is hit, the sound is deep and it sounds like a tuning fork, but the sound does not last as long as it does from the first katar.

[Ian]

Beautiful examples Jens. Thanks for sharing them.

Ian.

[frequent]

these are some nice katars they look brand new

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Ian

Beautiful examples Jens. Thanks for sharing them.

Ian.

Ian

And what am I chopped liver

Lew

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Lew, I lost you - i don't understand what you mean?

Thank you Ian, the thing is, that you have to look closer at the the detail, hopefully you will see, that the fish have eyes on both sides.

[Philip]

Louie, in my book it's right up there with smoked whitefish, and with sliced beef tongue on rye with a side of kosher dills and sauerkraut. Oy, I'm getting hungry already, I'm done with the forum for today...

[Ian]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Ian

And what am I chopped liver

Lew

More like a fine paté, Lew. Yours are very nice too.

Ian.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Ian

More like a fine paté, Lew. Yours are very nice too.

Ian.

Ok Ian I will have everything on the menu and put it in a bucket and don't skimp on the paté.


Lew

[B.I]

hi jim,
sorry for my late entrance. i missed your call on this one. and so, all relevant information has already been said!
i also agree with lew, that the blades were also joined via a peened-over shortened tang, which can be elongated to resemble a dovetail.
the attached image is an old example, of the early 17thC. the blade sits into a cut out slot in the guard (quite shallow as the guard is not thick) and a small tang has been peened over.
you would think this is not a sturdy way to join the blade, given the stabbing purpose of the dagger but it is 400 years old and still solid with no movement.
delor, with these three ways of constructing a katar, i think you have a free reign. if you want historical accuracy, why not roughly design the katar that you have in mind, and show the drawings. we can then tell you what it is close to (ie which culture), and show you pictures of actual examples of the same type. you can then adjust the drawings to suit, and you fit the blade in the appropriate way.