FIRANGI FOR COMMENTS

Flavio · 26th October 2006, 05:21 PM

Hi all, this is arrived yesterday, my first firangi. Well i think is a true beauty

. Any comment is welcome. Can someone help me for the age? Thanks guys

Lew · 26th October 2006, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hi all, this is arrived yesterday, my first firangi. Well i think is a true beauty

. Any comment is welcome. Can someone help me for the age? Thanks guys

My first firangi! nice ears on that firangi must have cost you a few bars of latinum

To the holo suites we go to test the sword

Btw the guy with the big ears on the left is a firangi.

Nice sword Flavio!
Congrats

Lew

FourBlades · 27th October 2006, 03:47 AM

Flavio,

Beautiful firangi. That is some interesting decoration on the hilt. There is something fascinating about old European blades being used on an Indian or Persian sword.

Were these blades made in Europe specifically for trading with other countries or are they more chance acquisitions that were re-hilted to be more convenient and familiar?

Is there any general way to determine the age or origin of the european blades used in these swords? For example, are there records of the companies that made or traded them, the quantites, etc?

John

ariel · 27th October 2006, 03:51 AM

Are we sure the blade is European? Locals everywhere put "European" markings, often mangled ones, on their blades. Likely, a matter of upping the price.
I am wondering whether squiggly markings here are not a local rendition of the "running wolf"....

Flavio · 27th October 2006, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Are we sure the blade is European? Locals everywhere put "European" markings, often mangled ones, on their blades. Likely, a matter of upping the price.
I am wondering whether squiggly markings here are not a local rendition of the "running wolf"....

Thank you Lew and John

Ariel you mean that this couldn't be a firangi strictu sensu since the blade could be of local production? Running wolf??? What is it?
Thanks

Lew · 27th October 2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Are we sure the blade is European? Locals everywhere put "European" markings, often mangled ones, on their blades. Likely, a matter of upping the price.
I am wondering whether squiggly markings here are not a local rendition of the "running wolf"....

Flavio

I took this description from Artzi's site.

The name ‘Firangi’ (Foreigner) was given to these swords in the 17 Century, as they were mounted with European (Foreign) blades, which were highly valued. Some blades were locally made in the European style. The blades were mounted on the ‘Khanda’ style hilt usually with the long spike extending from the pommel which allows the use of the sword as a two handed sword.

I does not really matter if the blade is locally made or European it is still considered a firangi style sword. You can find kaskara and tulwars with Euro blades that does not make it something else it is still a kaskara or a tulwar. It is very hard to tell the difference between Euro and good quailty local blades Indian smiths were highly skilled at their craft. I understand the semantics here with regard to blade origin but I think after careful study we must consider the general style the determining factor and not where the blade came from.

Lew

ariel · 27th October 2006, 05:59 PM

Lew is perfectly correct: no matter what, this sword is a true Firanghi.
Having said that, I still suspect the blade is local: the markings do not correspond to anything European I've seen and look somewhat crudely executed. The " running wolf" is a mark of Passau (later Solingen). Local everywhere in the world imitated it with imagination running wild.
Do not take me wrong: the quality of the "local" blade might have been better than the original.
Good sword!

Flavio · 27th October 2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Lew is perfectly correct: no matter what, this sword is a true Firanghi.
Having said that, I still suspect the blade is local: the markings do not correspond to anything European I've seen and look somewhat crudely executed. The " running wolf" is a mark of Passau (later Solingen). Local everywhere in the world imitated it with imagination running wild.
Do not take me wrong: the quality of the "local" blade might have been better than the original.
Good sword!

Thank you Lew and Ariel

Ariel, no problem at all, and thank you for the explanation on the running wolf

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2006, 05:22 PM

Hi Flavio

,

If this is you first firangi, you have chosen well. It is very nice and old as well. I like the blade, but especially I like the hilt, this was not made for parades, it was made for use. The decoration under the guard, is very nice. Imagine what it must have looked like when the decoration was intact.

Yes Lew is right, no matter where the blade was made, it is a firangi.

Flavio · 30th October 2006, 05:35 PM

Hi Jens

, Thank you very much

Flavio · 30th October 2006, 07:33 PM

Hi all, sorry for this question, that could be stupid, but on the fews firangi that i have seen (on this forum, on ebay and on seller's sites) seems always, or in many cases, that he blades are over cleaned: this is due to the age (i mean cleaning through the years), to recent over cleaning or what? also mine shows a over cleaning (see the "running wolf" signs). Thank you

Lew · 30th October 2006, 07:42 PM

Flavio

Yes your blade looks be be a bit over cleaned you can tell by the fullers they have a tired appearance to them but it is still a good sword in good condition.
Over cleaning is an occupational hazard that we collectors must deal with. If your sword was all nasty and rusted you may not have bought and on the other hand if it were pristine you would have paid four times as much for it so in this way you have settled for the middle ground.

Lew

Flavio · 30th October 2006, 07:50 PM

Hi Lew,

yes what you say is perfect, but what makes me think is the fact that the blade near the handle (where the two tongues [sorry i don't know the exact term

] meets the blade with the two rivets) doesn't show the rust that i have to expect in a place so difficult to clean. Anyway these are just free thoughts

p.s. maybe the blade was re-mounted?

Lew · 30th October 2006, 08:30 PM

Flavio

One reason why you may see less rust on the langlets is they were made of milder steel with less carbon content. Sword blades would have a higher carbon content there fore they would be more prone to rusting. Another reason is firangi blades if damaged or broken in battle could be easly replaced with a new blade just by punching out the rivet and attaching a new blade.

Lew

Flavio · 30th October 2006, 08:36 PM

Lew,

thank you for the explanation

26th October 2006, 05:21 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	FIRANGI FOR COMMENTS Hi all, this is arrived yesterday, my first firangi. Well i think is a true beauty . Any comment is welcome. Can someone help me for the age? Thanks guys Attached Images

30th October 2006, 05:22 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Flavio, If this is you first firangi, you have chosen well. It is very nice and old as well. I like the blade, but especially I like the hilt, this was not made for parades, it was made for use. The decoration under the guard, is very nice. Imagine what it must have looked like when the decoration was intact. Yes Lew is right, no matter where the blade was made, it is a firangi. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 30th October 2006 at 05:32 PM.

27th October 2006, 03:47 AM	#3
FourBlades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 13	Flavio, Beautiful firangi. That is some interesting decoration on the hilt. There is something fascinating about old European blades being used on an Indian or Persian sword. Were these blades made in Europe specifically for trading with other countries or are they more chance acquisitions that were re-hilted to be more convenient and familiar? Is there any general way to determine the age or origin of the european blades used in these swords? For example, are there records of the companies that made or traded them, the quantites, etc? John

27th October 2006, 03:51 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Are we sure the blade is European? Locals everywhere put "European" markings, often mangled ones, on their blades. Likely, a matter of upping the price. I am wondering whether squiggly markings here are not a local rendition of the "running wolf"....

27th October 2006, 05:59 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Lew is perfectly correct: no matter what, this sword is a true Firanghi. Having said that, I still suspect the blade is local: the markings do not correspond to anything European I've seen and look somewhat crudely executed. The " running wolf" is a mark of Passau (later Solingen). Local everywhere in the world imitated it with imagination running wild. Do not take me wrong: the quality of the "local" blade might have been better than the original. Good sword!

30th October 2006, 05:35 PM	#10
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Jens , Thank you very much

30th October 2006, 07:33 PM	#11
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all, sorry for this question, that could be stupid, but on the fews firangi that i have seen (on this forum, on ebay and on seller's sites) seems always, or in many cases, that he blades are over cleaned: this is due to the age (i mean cleaning through the years), to recent over cleaning or what? also mine shows a over cleaning (see the "running wolf" signs). Thank you

30th October 2006, 07:42 PM	#12
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Flavio Yes your blade looks be be a bit over cleaned you can tell by the fullers they have a tired appearance to them but it is still a good sword in good condition. Over cleaning is an occupational hazard that we collectors must deal with. If your sword was all nasty and rusted you may not have bought and on the other hand if it were pristine you would have paid four times as much for it so in this way you have settled for the middle ground. Lew

30th October 2006, 07:50 PM	#13
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Lew, yes what you say is perfect, but what makes me think is the fact that the blade near the handle (where the two tongues [sorry i don't know the exact term ] meets the blade with the two rivets) doesn't show the rust that i have to expect in a place so difficult to clean. Anyway these are just free thoughts p.s. maybe the blade was re-mounted?

30th October 2006, 08:30 PM	#14
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Flavio One reason why you may see less rust on the langlets is they were made of milder steel with less carbon content. Sword blades would have a higher carbon content there fore they would be more prone to rusting. Another reason is firangi blades if damaged or broken in battle could be easly replaced with a new blade just by punching out the rivet and attaching a new blade. Lew

30th October 2006, 08:36 PM	#15
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Lew, thank you for the explanation