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Old 25th October 2006, 01:22 PM   #1
Gt Obach
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Hi Chris

that is basically what i said at the beginning.... that cutting fabric only tells you about the type of edge.... there are many different types of edges... and all have their strong and weak points.. ... it would make sense that the arms were tailored to the targets they were meant to cut...... hollow grind for razors, flat for bowies, convex for choppers....just for example...

-- ofcourse this is not a static rule..... you can have a wide hollow grind and it will make a stong blade..... or really sharpen a convex edge and it will shave paper..

-- what about the sharpening technology...... it says something about that aswell..... you have to have decent abrasives..... or you simply cannot get a fine edge otherwise...

-- look at the top notch polish on Japanese blades..... if they didn't have access to such fine silicate stones.... it would be very hard to replicate this..... because you simply can't pop over to the local hardware and buy graded abrasive papers... it has to be quarried and graded...


sharp topic

Greg
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Old 25th October 2006, 02:27 PM   #2
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I have followed this thread with interest and found the metallury comments informative. However, I feel from my limited knowledge on the subject that a 'Occam's Razor' approach may be relavent (not sure if the 'Razor' is wootz...but I digress ).
In my mind there are so many variables to this debate...the quality of the steel, the differences of forging technigue and method, the design and thickness of the blade, edge formation (hollow ground, flat ground and so on)etc etc.....that it would be almost impossible to reach a conclusive answer.

But I know this to be true.....an old, battle weary sword MUST be a GOOD sword......It has survived all the testing it required, perhaps this is why they end up as 'heirloom' pieces.......'here son ..inherit my sword...which I know to be battle worthy and will not fail you in combat.'

Simplistic...I know.....but then again simplicity served 'Occam' well
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Old 26th October 2006, 03:06 AM   #3
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Hi katana,

Quote:
Originally Posted by katana

.....an old, battle weary sword MUST be a GOOD sword......It has survived all the testing it required, perhaps this is why they end up as 'heirloom' pieces.......'here son ..inherit my sword...which I know to be battle worthy and will not fail you in combat.
You know, I always wondered if a sword survived that long, if it ever saw much combat, if any......

Cheers
Chris
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Old 26th October 2006, 04:40 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
Hi katana,



You know, I always wondered if a sword survived that long, if it ever saw much combat, if any......

Cheers
Chris
I am not sure you are right. The ones from Figiel's collection are pristine; they definitely never were drawn in anger. But most of mine are pretty worn, scarred, re-sharpened, broken here and there, nicked... They must have been tough old buggers!
Cheer up, man! There is a lot of old human DNA to be extracted from yours, too!
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Old 26th October 2006, 03:01 PM   #5
Ann Feuerbach
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If, and I do mean IF, the blades from Luristan are indeed crucible steel, and IF they are as early as they are thought to be, then yes, they would be the earliest known crucible steel objects known. This does not Prove, Disprove, nor should it suggest any "origin" for the process. There was a great deal of trade going on and movements of people and empires. Only a well dated and well documented, early unquestionable crucible steel production site, might tell us where and when the process originated. Until that is found, be it in India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Baluchistan, Uzbekistan, Iran or elsewhere, my mind remains open. India is the most likely place of origin, but I refuse to ASSUME that India is the place of origination of the process just because they were a major producer later on.

If we look at the published facts, apart from the objects found at Taxila (Pakistan, which geographically is Central Asia) all the earliest crucible steel object known (by that I mean published), are from OUTSIDE of India. This is probably just a feature of preservation and discovery, rather than reflecting what really happened in the past. But nevertheless, these are the facts!

Lets look at the textual "evidence":
PhD extract "During the first century AD Pliny (died 79 AD) wrote …“But of all the varieties of iron the palm goes to the Seres with their fabrics and skins. The second prize goes to Parthian iron; and indeed no other kinds of iron are forged from pure metal, as all the rest have a softer alloy welded with them” (Pliny, XXXIV translated by Rackham, 1995, 143-146). Bronson (1986) has argued that there is no evidence that the Seres were producing and exporting “wootz” to Rome. Those who discuss Pliny’s statement seem to only be concerned about who the Seres were, probably the Tamil Cheres of South India (Juleff, 1990). However, the rest of Pliny’s statement is perhaps even more telling. Regardless of who the Seres were, Pliny states that they, and the Parthians, are the only people to produce pure metal. " It is likly that this "pure metal" is crucible steel, as it is referred to as pure metal in later literature.Thus, this suggests that crucible steel was being produced in Iran (Parthia) from an early date.

Lets look at later ethnographic evidence:
PhD extract:
"It is important to recall Bronson’s observation that no first hand ethnographic reports from South India mention that the steel produces a Damascus pattern (Bronson, 1986, 39-40). In addition, the experiments performed by Wilkinson (1839, 389) on crucible steel ingots from Cutch, in Northern India on the India-Pakistan border, and from Salem, southern India, concluded that only the ingot from Cutch produced a good pattern, whereas the Salem sample had only a slight indication of a pattern. Therefore, the evidence from all archaeological, ethnographic, and replication experiments, indicates that crucible steel from South India/Sri Lanka, i.e. the areas associated with the terms wootz, produced crucible steel blades with either no pattern or a faint pattern only. Arguably, it is the coarse pattern, such as the Kara Khorasan pattern, that is most often associated with or characterizes “Damascus steel” (refer to Figures 97-100). As mentioned above, the archaeological evidence from Merv and Termez indicated that the microstructure of the ingots could have resulted in a coarse patterned blade. In addition, textual evidence (e.g. al-Beruni in Said, 1989, 219-220), and ethnographic reports (e.g. Abbott, 1884; Wilkinson, 1839, 38) all state that crucible steel blades with a good pattern were produced in Central Asia and Northern India, places where the term pulad (or related term) was used. Therefore, all the afore mentioned evidence indicates that crucible steel from Central Asia, which includes Northern India, could produced crucible steel blades with a coarse pattern, while the South Indian/Sri Lankan wootz ingots probably did not. This is contrary to the generally accepted opinion that Indian wootz steel was primarily used to produce “Damascus blades” (e.g. Verhoeven, 2001; Figiel, 1991, 7; Rostoker and Bronson, 1990, 130; Sachse, 1994, 67).

If we only go by what people assume they know, rather than the facts, we will not progress. We might as well be looking for the origin of Damascus steel in Syria!
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach
If, and I do mean IF, the blades from Luristan are indeed crucible steel, and IF they are as early as they are thought to be, then yes, they would be the earliest known crucible steel objects known. This does not Prove, Disprove, nor should it suggest any "origin" for the process. There was a great deal of trade going on and movements of people and empires. Only a well dated and well documented, early unquestionable crucible steel production site, might tell us where and when the process originated. Until that is found, be it in India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Baluchistan, Uzbekistan, Iran or elsewhere, my mind remains open. India is the most likely place of origin, but I refuse to ASSUME that India is the place of origination of the process just because they were a major producer later on.

If we look at the published facts, apart from the objects found at Taxila (Pakistan, which geographically is Central Asia) all the earliest crucible steel object known (by that I mean published), are from OUTSIDE of India. This is probably just a feature of preservation and discovery, rather than reflecting what really happened in the past. But nevertheless, these are the facts!

Lets look at the textual "evidence":
PhD extract "During the first century AD Pliny (died 79 AD) wrote …“But of all the varieties of iron the palm goes to the Seres with their fabrics and skins. The second prize goes to Parthian iron; and indeed no other kinds of iron are forged from pure metal, as all the rest have a softer alloy welded with them” (Pliny, XXXIV translated by Rackham, 1995, 143-146). Bronson (1986) has argued that there is no evidence that the Seres were producing and exporting “wootz” to Rome. Those who discuss Pliny’s statement seem to only be concerned about who the Seres were, probably the Tamil Cheres of South India (Juleff, 1990). However, the rest of Pliny’s statement is perhaps even more telling. Regardless of who the Seres were, Pliny states that they, and the Parthians, are the only people to produce pure metal. " It is likly that this "pure metal" is crucible steel, as it is referred to as pure metal in later literature.Thus, this suggests that crucible steel was being produced in Iran (Parthia) from an early date.

Lets look at later ethnographic evidence:
PhD extract:
"It is important to recall Bronson’s observation that no first hand ethnographic reports from South India mention that the steel produces a Damascus pattern (Bronson, 1986, 39-40). In addition, the experiments performed by Wilkinson (1839, 389) on crucible steel ingots from Cutch, in Northern India on the India-Pakistan border, and from Salem, southern India, concluded that only the ingot from Cutch produced a good pattern, whereas the Salem sample had only a slight indication of a pattern. Therefore, the evidence from all archaeological, ethnographic, and replication experiments, indicates that crucible steel from South India/Sri Lanka, i.e. the areas associated with the terms wootz, produced crucible steel blades with either no pattern or a faint pattern only. Arguably, it is the coarse pattern, such as the Kara Khorasan pattern, that is most often associated with or characterizes “Damascus steel” (refer to Figures 97-100). As mentioned above, the archaeological evidence from Merv and Termez indicated that the microstructure of the ingots could have resulted in a coarse patterned blade. In addition, textual evidence (e.g. al-Beruni in Said, 1989, 219-220), and ethnographic reports (e.g. Abbott, 1884; Wilkinson, 1839, 38) all state that crucible steel blades with a good pattern were produced in Central Asia and Northern India, places where the term pulad (or related term) was used. Therefore, all the afore mentioned evidence indicates that crucible steel from Central Asia, which includes Northern India, could produced crucible steel blades with a coarse pattern, while the South Indian/Sri Lankan wootz ingots probably did not. This is contrary to the generally accepted opinion that Indian wootz steel was primarily used to produce “Damascus blades” (e.g. Verhoeven, 2001; Figiel, 1991, 7; Rostoker and Bronson, 1990, 130; Sachse, 1994, 67).

If we only go by what people assume they know, rather than the facts, we will not progress. We might as well be looking for the origin of Damascus steel in Syria!

Thank you, very much, for the additional information, Ann.

Let's let this be the final word on this here, everyone.
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Old 27th October 2006, 01:40 AM   #7
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Going back to the combat value of wootz swords.
Iranian chronicles report that Shah Ismail at Chaldaran split a fully armoured opponent from head to saddle with one stroke of his wootz shamshir: helmet, mail, the works. Also, he split in two several enemies cutting them across the body or diagonally. He was also reported to cut 7 chains securing Turkish heavy guns with the same sword.
Do you think these stories are true or exaggerations by the Ismail's court poets?
The Japanese performed cutting tests with their swords on human bodies, but those were naked. I find it difficult to believe that a sword, no matter how good, would be able to slice a full set of armour through-and-through or 1-2 cm thick steel chain links.
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Old 27th October 2006, 02:04 AM   #8
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Hi Ariel,

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I am not sure you are right. The ones from Figiel's collection are pristine; they definitely never were drawn in anger. But most of mine are pretty worn, scarred, re-sharpened, broken here and there, nicked... They must have been tough old buggers!
Cheer up, man! There is a lot of old human DNA to be extracted from yours, too!
I am one who believes that swords have a definite service life, after which they better be retired from active duty. Of course, if the blade saw little or no use, then it can be used indefinitely. My problem is not with old swords kept as family heorlooms, but as when supposedly used used for combat, from generation to generation. Internal flaws can grow with repeated loading on the blade.


Re your observations on armour cutting feats with wootz swords: Perhaps not entirely without substance, but probably exagerated - For what it is worth, the Japanese had stout armour cutting swords with which many of their cutting stunts were performed. These were often modified naginata (halberd) blades. I did see one such sword in Japan and it had a shoulder about twice as thick as that of an ordinary sword, that is, around 12mm and had an edge like a cold chisel. I have a reference, somewhere in my library, in which an experienced old samurai criticized a display of helmet splitting, by a colleague, arguing that he cheated buy using a naginata blade. Perhaps tsubame1 (carlo) can help us out here.

Cheers
Chris

Last edited by Chris Evans; 27th October 2006 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 27th October 2006, 02:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
Hi Ariel,



I am one who believes that swords have a definite service life, after which they better be retired from active duty. Of course, if the blade saw little or no use, then it can be used indefinitely. My problem is not with old swords kept as family heorlooms, but as when supposedly used used for combat, from generation to generation. Internal flaws can grow with repeated loading on the blade.


Cheers
Chris
No doubt, a combination of age and mileage will induce a lot of infirmities and I can only empathize
On the other hand, I would not be excited having a sword that spent its entire life in some armoury, cleaned and oiled at 3 months intervals.

I have a wakizashi that bears a signature of somebody from 13th(?) century. Probably, forged. It is so old, that it has about half of its original width left. I dread to think of all the mechanical stresses it went through. I would not dream offering it to somebody for a cutting test. But, if it had been polished and repolished so many times, it must have signified something to its many owners. It earned a comfortable retirement in a company of other, equally scarred, veterans.
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Old 27th October 2006, 02:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I have a wakizashi that bears a signature of somebody from 13th(?) century. Probably, forged. It is so old, that it has about half of its original width left. I dread to think of all the mechanical stresses it went through. I would not dream offering it to somebody for a cutting test. But, if it had been polished and repolished so many times, it must have signified something to its many owners. It earned a comfortable retirement in a company of other, equally scarred, veterans.
And I bet that it is worth quite a bit!

Cheers
Chris
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Old 27th October 2006, 03:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
I have a reference, somewhere in my library, in which an experienced old samurai criticized a display of helmet splitting, by a colleague, arguing that he cheated buy using a naginata blade. Perhaps tsubame1 (carlo) can help us out here.
Naginata is for sure a thicker blade then a Katana. Anyway,
Kabutowari (helmet-cutting), even if much less known then other forms of
fixing Wazamono rating (ability to cut) has been performed in old times and
a fist of times in modern days too, with swords. The most known is the one advertised here : http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html . This link provides further information about past Kabutowari tests as well.

Nonetheless this specific cutting test isn't IMHO enough historically accurate.
The blade IS NOT a NihonTo. Is a blade made by Paul Champagne, that's for sure an incredibly good blade, but has no value for a comparative test with NihonTo. More belivable is the previous test (which likely Obata Toshihiro has been inspired by) made by Terutaka Kawabata Sensei.

The following picture (not reported in that site) refers to the experiment made by (scroll down to Post-Meiji attempts in the link provided) Terutaka Kawabata Sensei with Yoshihara Yoshindo *unmounted* blade. This detail is of great importance and this is the reason I scanned the picture (Obata test was made the same way, without a proper made handle).
These tests are often referred to as unreliable due to the fact the neck of
the helmet's owner would absorbe a lot of energy (resulting, IMHO, in the breaking of the said neck BTW...), an opponent isn't a fixed target but a mobile one (of no pertinence, IMHO) and that the helmet was old and possibly already damaged. Even if the first statement can have some validity, as per the 3rd one the helmet was accurately choosen and of good quality (sic...) and the blade made the traditional way. The lack of mounting can only add to the ability of the cutters and, in a lesser way, to the quality of the blades. Being the helmet, for it's shape and paramount importance, likely the most resistant part of the armor, it can be, IMHO, safely assumed that *some* armors, might be the lesser or lighter ones, could be cut *in some places* (sleeves and other) by a sword (not necessarily a japanese one and no matter about the steel used).

As per swords durability : Oakeshott used to say "a sword has 3 battles or
3 hundred years in it, whichever come first".

Quiet exaggerate IMHO (at least for NihonTo that have 9 centuries battle-proof living examples...), but gives a good idea about a general rule : nothing is forever in this world and the swords that have survived till today either :

a) have seen few to no usage

b) have been used, even heavily, but were of very high quality

c) had an incredible amount of luck

d) an interesting mix of the previous three statements .
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Last edited by tsubame1; 27th October 2006 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 27th October 2006, 03:54 PM   #12
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So, going back to the combat value of the woorz blades: do we think that the poetic descriptions of Shah Ismail's cutting feats ( see my earlier post) are compatible with real abilities of a very good wootz sword or are gross exaggerations?
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Old 26th October 2006, 03:02 AM   #13
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Gt Obach,

You make very good and valid observations - I totally agree.

Discussions of this kind take us down some very interesting side issues. I found this thread most valuable and the various contributions made by the forumites of a high order.

Cheers
Chris
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