Old Argentinian facon ...

[Ian]

Lee:

Great old knives. Thanks for posting them.

I wonder whether the top one in your picture might be a Brazilian faca da ponta -- I understand they often did not have a guard, and it does resemble some of the plated examples that are seen quite commonly. Perhaps Chris could explain the difference between the facón and faca (besides one word being Spanish and the other Portuguese).

I recently picked up a couple of faca from a seller in Portugal and will post pictures when they arrive. Both appear to be 19th C. One has clearly been cut down from a longer blade.

They are here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290033335500

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290033333008

Ian.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Ian,

Originally Posted by Ian

I wonder whether the top one in your picture might be a Brazilian faca da ponta -- I understand they often did not have a guard, and it does resemble some of the plated examples that are seen quite commonly. Perhaps Chris could explain the difference between the facón and faca (besides one word being Spanish and the other Portuguese).

.

I do not speak Portuguese, but faca simply means knife and the Spanish adopted this term in some parts of their country. Perhaps Fernando can correct me here. Not used much these days isn Spain and the Spanish version of e-bay will not recognize the word facon.

In Spanish if we attach "on" onto another word then it denotes a greater than normal size. So for example "navaja" is changed to "navajon", then it means that we are dealing with a large navaja. Same with faca and facon.


Hope this helps
Chris

[Ian]

Hi Robert:

That one looks fairly typical of a Philippine daga -- the octagonal shaped hiilt is a common finding on knives from parts of Luzon and from areas in the Visayas. Does the tang pass all the way through the hilt? If so, it will be from Luzon.

Ian.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Ian,
I do not speak Portuguese, but faca simply means knife and the Spanish adopted this term in some parts of their country. Perhaps Fernando can correct me here. Not used much these days isn Spain and the Spanish version of e-bay will not recognize the word facon.
In Spanish if we attach "on" onto another word then it denotes a greater than normal size. So for example "navaja" is changed to "navajon", then it means that we are dealing with a large navaja. Same with faca and facon.
Hope this helps
Chris

Hi Chris,
Both faca and cuchillo were available in either Castillian and Portuguese, only that Spaniards basically use cuchillo, whereas Portuguese stayed with faca. Currently speacking, cuchillo in Spain and faca in Portugal, are the basic terms that cover the current kitchen, table and other non weapon knives and cutting utilities. Swaping of these terms, or their word derivations, or even the right context, determine the conotation or atribution of weapon .
Castillian facon, same as Portuguese facão both mean bigger sized facas, but such terms are more to sugest the weapon idea, rather than their dimension. Or if a Portuguese ( not so recently ) says someone has a cuchilho, he is referring to a concealed weapon. Again this is the generic situation, not having to relate to any sort of specific tipology.
Kind regards
fernando

[Ian]

Thanks to Chris and Fernando for their explanations.

Ian.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Many thanks for that explanation.

Domenech is of the opinion that the word facon came into usage when Brazilian gauchos came into contact with those of what nowadays is Uruguay, who were armed with very large knives and referred to these as facao, pronounced as facaun and the Gauchos Hispanizied it to facon.

Cheers
Chris

[not2sharp]

The sword in the first post looks like it may be one of a wide variety of musician's sidearms, dress bayonets, or walking out swords, that were popular during the 19th century. These were used widely, by many nations, in a wide variety of forms - the same manufacturers would often contract to mix and match parts to fill customer orders. The blade on this looks very similar to the one used by the Italian Piedmont short sword of 1848, but it could just as easily been made for a private society during the late 19th or early 20th century.

n2s

[fernando]

Hi Chris,

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Fernando,

Many thanks for that explanation.

Domenech is of the opinion that the word facon came into usage when Brazilian gauchos came into contact with those of what nowadays is Uruguay, who were armed with very large knives and referred to these as facao, pronounced as facaun and the Gauchos Hispanizied it to facon.
Cheers
Chris

So it all fits.
BTW the sound is more like facaum.
Regards
fernando