Murut Swords

Dajak · 15th October 2006, 05:06 PM

Hi here some pictures off pakayuns
Any one who wanna sell his pakayun just mail me

Tim Simmons · 15th October 2006, 05:15 PM

Wonderful.

Flavio · 15th October 2006, 05:21 PM

EXTRAORDINARY

Alam Shah · 15th October 2006, 05:45 PM

Excellent.

Lovely Murut Pakayuns.
I have a question. Why is the pakayun's hilt shaped with the 2 points?
What is the significant of the design?

Opps! That's 2 questions...

David · 15th October 2006, 05:47 PM

Damn, Shahrial, that was going to be my question(s) as well.

DOES anyone know?

Dajak · 15th October 2006, 06:31 PM

It is because with the 3 points it was to big to hold in the Hand

The problem whit this there is very little writing on this weapon

Shelford did tell about this in an artikel that was presented in 1901 that the shape off the handle maybe compared whit the Y schaped handle off stag horn of the Mahakkam river parang ilang

I also look when anyone has a book off this subject let me know.

I think first style was like my avater than came
the fork style just because more easy to make.

(but don t now it for sure there is also another style off handle used by the Muruts)

VVV · 15th October 2006, 07:47 PM

Very nice,

I thought you were "full" after you got the latest Pakayun?

Michael

Dajak · 15th October 2006, 09:06 PM

Hi Michael I did found some open spot and the last one was so nice that it make me start again looking for them.

CharlesS · 16th October 2006, 03:28 AM

Magnificent collention Benny. Thanks for sharing.

...now if you want to sell any....I am only collecting Indo Malay swords these days. No more kerises for me.

Bill M · 16th October 2006, 07:27 AM

Very nice collection, Ben. Thanks for posting.

I would appreciate comments on mine.

Dajak · 16th October 2006, 09:30 AM

Hi Bill thanks for sending the pics I think this is an later type off pakayun the wooden handle is to long the brass piece too short the blade looks good.
Is it laminated the blade ???

It is different what we see on the old pakayuns also the scabbard different has no carving on it.

I have not see this type off pakayun at any pics off muruts nore in any book
so that is why I say it must be an later type .
But the blade might be from an old pakayun so might also be a new repair to an old blade.

You find these short brass collars on the other type off murut swords
but their blade are not so long.

Bill M · 16th October 2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi Bill thanks for sending the pics I think this is an later type off pakayun the wooden handle is to long the brass piece too short the blade looks good.
Is it laminated the blade ???

It is different what we see on the old pakayuns also the scabbard different has no carving on it.

I have not see this type off pakayun at any pics off muruts nore in any book
so that is why I say it must be an later type .
But the blade might be from an old pakayun so might also be a new repair to an old blade.

You find these short brass collars on the other type off murut swords
but their blade are not so long.

Benny,

Thank you for your well thought out reply. I am unfamilair with these pieces, but like ithe patina on the handle.

I value your opinion because I know that you have been collecting in these areas for about 30 years and studied them well! I would call you an expert! And a nice guy!

The blade does seem to be laminated. It is also quite thick and heavy. A few nicks, but overall good condition.

Can you tell me more about what does "later" mean? Any idea of what year?

I can see that the handles on yours are shorter. Could this have been made for a larger person? My blade length is about 30 inches (76.2 cm) and the handle is about 6" (15.24 cm).

The workmanship seems solid.

Looking forward to visiting you in the Netherlands!

Dajak · 16th October 2006, 10:20 AM

Hi Bill it is hard to date that handle it is not old type

And in mine opinion they still make them this way using them as an wedding gift John that lives in Sabah could tell more about this

The blade is vey nice

The Handle off the old pakayuns with the brass collar 17 till 20 cm.

Yours is that with the brass collar ???

Bill M · 16th October 2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi Bill it is hard to date that handle it is not old type

And in mine opinion they still make them this way using them as an wedding gift John that lives in Sabah could tell more about this

The blade is vey nice

Benny,

Do you thing that the blade is older and possibly authentic?

I will get in touch with John. I know him very well. I will ask his opinion. I will ask him to post it here. I like learning and if this pakayun is not correct, I want to lean more about what is right so that I can buy that kind when I see one!

Maybe they used mine in the dance <smile>!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

The Handle off the old pakayuns with the brass collar 17 till 20 cm.

Yours is that with the brass collar ???

Benny, what does this mean? Please explain further.

Warmest regards,
Bill

VVV · 16th October 2006, 01:48 PM

Bill,

I think Ben means that your brass collar is shorter than those on all of his Pakayun.
More the size of his Parang Sangkit, which is a different kind of Murut sword.
John has posted his 2 nice Pakayun in his gallery on the Kampungnet.

Here is another one of the very rare old style Pakayun.
I know that Ben doesn't think the red colour is traditional.
But the colour is already antique and I don't feel like changing anything.
I am a bit low on other Pakayun after Ben decided to focus his collecting.

Michael

Dajak · 16th October 2006, 10:13 PM

Hi Michael your pakayun has found a nice spot on the wall at my home
but now we have to talk about this one you showing

I only see 2 pakayuns with the middle carved and you now this is very old style the one in your hands and mine

Hi Bill the measure is from the brass collar to the end off the handle

The style off the old pakayuns is with long brass collar so are they pictured
in stone's Glossary and on old pics

Never see them with the long wooden handle so that is why this is in mine opinion this is not so old as the other ones with long brass collars

But not easy to date yours Bill scabbard is also without carving so later date
but blade does look like the old ones

But if you ever visit me it is easyer to explain for me

Bill M · 16th October 2006, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi Bill the measure is from the brass collar to the end off the handle

The style off the old pakayuns is with long brass collar so are they pictured
in stone's Glossary and on old pics

Never see them with the long wooden handle so that is why this is in mine opinion this is not so old as the other ones with long brass collars

But not easy to date yours Bill scabbard is also without carving so later date
but blade does look like the old ones

But if you ever visit me it is easyer to explain for me

Ben,

Ah, now I understand. The length of the brass collar! Now I see a big difference in mine and the others.

While I am happy to know more, I am a bit concerned that mine is not a good example as I thought it was.

Please understand that I am grateful that you pointed it out. I need to know.

I probably won't sell mine because I like the blade. I also like the wear patina on the handle.

But I am in the market for a correct one, an old correct one would be even better. I will PM you about this.

I am curious about the two points on the end of the handle that look different than most of yours. Is this also someting I should watch out for?

VANDOO · 17th October 2006, 07:03 AM

A VERY IMPRESSIVE COLLECTION AND ITS DIFFICULT TO EVEN HAVE ONE PACKAYUN IN YOUR COLLECTION SO CONGRADULATIONS TO ALL!!

I NOTICED THAT TWO OF BENS EXAMPLES AND MICHAEL'S EXAMPLE HAVE THE SMALL SHARP POINT WHERE THE BLADE NEARS THE HANDLE AND THE FORTE IS THINNER WHERE IT GOES INTO THE HANDLE TO FORM THE TANG. THIS FEATURE REMINDS ME OF THE BATACK PISO FORMS OF KNIVES. ALSO THE TIP ON ONE OF BEN'S EXAMPLES AND MICHAEL'S EXAMPLE DON'T HAVE THE CLIPPED POINTS LIKE THE OTHER EXAMPLES. I ASSUME THE BATACK WERE TRADING IN THE AREA IF NOT RELATED TO THE MURUT SO POSSIBLY THEY BROUGHT IN SOME TRADE BLADES

THERE ARE MANY VARIATIONS IN MOST WEAPONS EVEN IF THERE ARE NOT ANY OUTSIDE INFLUENCES. SO THAT PART OF THE WORLD IS EVEN MORE VARIED DUE TO ALL THE INTERACTION OF MANY DIFFERENT CULTURES OVER A VERY LONG TIME.
I LIKE IT A LOT

IT JUST WOULDN'T BE AS MUCH FUN IF EVERYTHING ETHINOGRAPHIC WAS JUST ALIKE.

VVV · 17th October 2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

I only see 2 pakayuns with the middle carved and you now this is very old style the one in your hands and mine

Ben,

You forgot about the third one, shown in Shelford's article.
Let's see who will find it?

Vandoo,

I think the resemblance on the Batak swords in this case is coincidental.
Those features, isolated, are present in several other areas as well and I haven't seen any Pakayun yet with a trade blade.
Also I haven't seen proof of that Bataks and Muruts had any direct cultural exchange.
Some Batak blades were influenced by the Portuguese however who also visited the Western coast of Borneo.
But I haven't read about any major influence on the Muruts from the Portuguese?
Instead Chinese traders had more early contact with them.

Michael

Dajak · 17th October 2006, 11:55 PM

Hi Bill yes take a good look at the Handle s the one you have to look for is
long brass collar and also if they have a scabbard it need to be one with carving on it

That s why I post these so people can see what they have to look like there are not so many pakayuns to compare

Hi Vandoo These blade forms are different from the Batak ones
it is like Michael says
also the muruts was a little group
And also thank to you I could make my pakayun collection
completer with an nice piece

Dajak · 24th October 2006, 04:49 PM

old Murut pic did get it from Michael

15th October 2006, 05:06 PM	#1
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Murut Swords Hi here some pictures off pakayuns Any one who wanna sell his pakayun just mail me Attached Images

15th October 2006, 06:31 PM	#6
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	It is because with the 3 points it was to big to hold in the Hand The problem whit this there is very little writing on this weapon Shelford did tell about this in an artikel that was presented in 1901 that the shape off the handle maybe compared whit the Y schaped handle off stag horn of the Mahakkam river parang ilang I also look when anyone has a book off this subject let me know. I think first style was like my avater than came the fork style just because more easy to make. (but don t now it for sure there is also another style off handle used by the Muruts) Last edited by Dajak; 15th October 2006 at 06:43 PM.

16th October 2006, 07:27 AM	#10
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Very nice collection, Ben. Thanks for posting. I would appreciate comments on mine. Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 16th October 2006 at 08:16 AM. Reason: add pictures

16th October 2006, 09:30 AM	#11
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill thanks for sending the pics I think this is an later type off pakayun the wooden handle is to long the brass piece too short the blade looks good. Is it laminated the blade ??? It is different what we see on the old pakayuns also the scabbard different has no carving on it. I have not see this type off pakayun at any pics off muruts nore in any book so that is why I say it must be an later type . But the blade might be from an old pakayun so might also be a new repair to an old blade. You find these short brass collars on the other type off murut swords but their blade are not so long. Attached Images

16th October 2006, 01:48 PM	#15
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Bill, I think Ben means that your brass collar is shorter than those on all of his Pakayun. More the size of his Parang Sangkit, which is a different kind of Murut sword. John has posted his 2 nice Pakayun in his gallery on the Kampungnet. Here is another one of the very rare old style Pakayun. I know that Ben doesn't think the red colour is traditional. But the colour is already antique and I don't feel like changing anything. I am a bit low on other Pakayun after Ben decided to focus his collecting. Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 16th October 2006 at 02:53 PM. Reason: additional info

15th October 2006, 05:15 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Wonderful.

15th October 2006, 05:21 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	EXTRAORDINARY

15th October 2006, 05:45 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Excellent. Lovely Murut Pakayuns. I have a question. Why is the pakayun's hilt shaped with the 2 points? What is the significant of the design? Opps! That's 2 questions...

15th October 2006, 05:47 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Damn, Shahrial, that was going to be my question(s) as well. DOES anyone know?

15th October 2006, 07:47 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Very nice, I thought you were "full" after you got the latest Pakayun? Michael

15th October 2006, 09:06 PM	#8
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael I did found some open spot and the last one was so nice that it make me start again looking for them.

16th October 2006, 03:28 AM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Magnificent collention Benny. Thanks for sharing. ...now if you want to sell any....I am only collecting Indo Malay swords these days. No more kerises for me.

16th October 2006, 10:20 AM	#13
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill it is hard to date that handle it is not old type And in mine opinion they still make them this way using them as an wedding gift John that lives in Sabah could tell more about this The blade is vey nice The Handle off the old pakayuns with the brass collar 17 till 20 cm. Yours is that with the brass collar ???

16th October 2006, 10:13 PM	#16
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael your pakayun has found a nice spot on the wall at my home but now we have to talk about this one you showing I only see 2 pakayuns with the middle carved and you now this is very old style the one in your hands and mine Hi Bill the measure is from the brass collar to the end off the handle The style off the old pakayuns is with long brass collar so are they pictured in stone's Glossary and on old pics Never see them with the long wooden handle so that is why this is in mine opinion this is not so old as the other ones with long brass collars But not easy to date yours Bill scabbard is also without carving so later date but blade does look like the old ones But if you ever visit me it is easyer to explain for me Attached Images

17th October 2006, 07:03 AM	#18
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY IMPRESSIVE COLLECTION AND ITS DIFFICULT TO EVEN HAVE ONE PACKAYUN IN YOUR COLLECTION SO CONGRADULATIONS TO ALL!! I NOTICED THAT TWO OF BENS EXAMPLES AND MICHAEL'S EXAMPLE HAVE THE SMALL SHARP POINT WHERE THE BLADE NEARS THE HANDLE AND THE FORTE IS THINNER WHERE IT GOES INTO THE HANDLE TO FORM THE TANG. THIS FEATURE REMINDS ME OF THE BATACK PISO FORMS OF KNIVES. ALSO THE TIP ON ONE OF BEN'S EXAMPLES AND MICHAEL'S EXAMPLE DON'T HAVE THE CLIPPED POINTS LIKE THE OTHER EXAMPLES. I ASSUME THE BATACK WERE TRADING IN THE AREA IF NOT RELATED TO THE MURUT SO POSSIBLY THEY BROUGHT IN SOME TRADE BLADES THERE ARE MANY VARIATIONS IN MOST WEAPONS EVEN IF THERE ARE NOT ANY OUTSIDE INFLUENCES. SO THAT PART OF THE WORLD IS EVEN MORE VARIED DUE TO ALL THE INTERACTION OF MANY DIFFERENT CULTURES OVER A VERY LONG TIME. I LIKE IT A LOT IT JUST WOULDN'T BE AS MUCH FUN IF EVERYTHING ETHINOGRAPHIC WAS JUST ALIKE.

17th October 2006, 11:55 PM	#20
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill yes take a good look at the Handle s the one you have to look for is long brass collar and also if they have a scabbard it need to be one with carving on it That s why I post these so people can see what they have to look like there are not so many pakayuns to compare Hi Vandoo These blade forms are different from the Batak ones it is like Michael says also the muruts was a little group And also thank to you I could make my pakayun collection completer with an nice piece

24th October 2006, 04:49 PM	#21
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	old Murut pic did get it from Michael Attached Images