What are these ?

[fenlander]

I am an English man presently livng in Taiwan near China. A Chinese friend of mine gave me these knives or swords, they were picked up in Xin Jiang western China. This provence both borders India and Tibet and is predominantly Islamic. They seem fairly old and was told they were old, but know nothing more about them that that. Anyone any ideas ? Or good places to look ? Also What is a good way to remove rust and tidy them up ? Any info on their uses or history would be appreciated. I can take more pictures if anyone is interested.

[Ian]

The top three are recently made knives from the Philippines or perhaps N. Borneo (late 20th C.).

In the next group of three, the middle one could be another recently made Philippine knife, but the top and bottom ones need better pictures. The bottom one might be a Vietnamese version of a dha.

In the last group of two, the top one is a recently made Philippine knife and the bottom one looks like an old Chinese knife.

Some of the Philippine knives may have been rehilted locally.

Ian.

[fenlander]

Thanks Ian much appreciated and interesting as he says he got them all in China, but know I doubt it and I think he meant that he got only the Chinese sword in China. I will take some better pictures of the small knives for you. I will also take some more of the Chinese knife.

[fenlander]

More detailed pics of the Chinese sword that is really weird looking. Cuts into wood suprisingly well though I tried it on a broom handle
Also more detailed look (three pics each for the small two knives) of the first two small knives, and then the next post is the third one of the small knives.

[fenlander]

The final knife of the three small knives.

[Ian]

Hi fenlander:

Well, the additional pictures show more of these knives and help a little. The Chinese knife appears to have some age, but I have not seen a similar knife before and really can't comment. You may have a nice old antique bronze knife -- that would be a pretty unusual find these days. Philip Thom or Scott Ridell could help you best -- drop them a PM.

The second one with the stag horn end of the handle is interesting. The square or rectangular guard and long iron ferrule suggest a Chinese influence to me. Perhaps southern China/Vietnam because there are various stag species in mainland Indochina and we have occasionally seen similar stag on pieces from Cambodia and Thailand. The V-shaped end of the ferrule might indicate a Vietnamese origin (see post below).

There is an Ayutthaya dha collected in Malaysia with an unusual stag handle that is being discussed in another thread currently. This knife might also be Thai, Lao or even Cambodian.

The third knife here obviously has some "after market" features in terms of the carving to the end of the hilt. Hard to give this one a clear provenance. The rest of the hilt still looks Philippine to me. There has been trade in edged weapons between Taiwan and the Philippines for a long time (not surprising given their close proximity). Taiwan tribal knives show up in Manila from time to time.

Ian.

Originally Posted by fenlander

More detailed pics of the Chinese sword that is really weird looking. Cuts into wood suprisingly well though I tried it on a broom handle
Also more detailed look (three pics each for the small two knives) of the first two small knives, and then the next post is the third one of the small knives.

[spiral]

The antler looks like its probably Barking deer antler. They were 100+ years ago commonly used on karda knives in Nepal.

Seen them on Naga necklaces as well.

I think the deer in its various varieties lives throughout south east asia though.

Spiral

[Ian]

This is the most interesting knife/small sword in your collection for me. It resembles a slim-bladed dha, and the rope binding is reminiscent of the baldrics attached to dha from various areas of mainland SE Asia. The slim, curved scabbard is not like any Thai, Burmese, Lao or Cambodian dha scabbards that I am familiar with. It does have a shape similar to Vietnamese sabers of the 19th C., which is one reason why I favor a Vietnamese origin for this one. Artzi Yarom has pictures on his site of Vietnamese sabers and scabbards which illustrate the shape: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1216 and http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1185

Another reason is the hilt. The long iron ferrule with a deep V at the end probably held an ivory or wood extension at the end of the handle. A similar handle is seen on a very beautiful sword on Scott Ridell's web site here: http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/art...page=vietsword

The square/rectangular iron guard again argues for a Chinese influence IMO, but that is consistent with a Vietnamese sword because China controlled much of what is Vietnam today for many centuries.

If you are ever interested in parting with this knife let me know. Also that Chinese puppy.

Ian.

Originally Posted by fenlander

The final knife of the three small knives.

[fenlander]

Do you happen to know what are there member names on this forum as don't seem to be able to find them ?

p.s.
Sure Ian, if i want to find a home for for those puppies then you'll be the first to know and I'll pm you

[fenlander]

Scot Riddel seems like he would be the man to know about this Chinese sword. Unfortunately his web site does not seem to have an e-mail address contact, or I can't see it on there.
I am starting to like this Chinese sword. I actually study wing chun kung fu so I am handy with the butterfly swords and this has a similar kind of feel. Got some real weight to it I guess because it is bronze.

[Ian]

I'm not seeing Scott in our member's list these days. However, Philip Thom is listed here as "Philip" -- you can contact him by using the PM function or send him an e-mail by going to his Member page and clicking on the e-mail link. Philip can also tell you how to contact Scott by e-mail. Scott's site presently has no e-mail information -- appears he has been updating it recently.

Ian.

[fenlander]

I sent a pm to Phillip. Thank for the help.

[fenlander]

Hi

I actually in the end find out by myself what it is through a book. It is either a genuine or a copy of an early dynasty brass chariot sword. I guess it is a later re-make but then again you never know. I will take it to the Chinese palace museum to let them see if it is origical or a re-make, i guess a re-make but jsut a small chance it is original, that would make it over a thousand years old! But hardly likely. Still at least i know its function now

[Ian]

Hi fenladner:

Any further news on the Chinese sword. Did you happen to contact Scott or Philip?

Ian.

[fenlander]

Hi Ian

Thanks for the help.
Actually dissapointingly none of them contacted me. However the good news is that I have found out what the Chinese sword is. It is either a replica or genuine Shang dynasty chariot sword. As I live in Taiwan it was not to hard to find out. It is exactly the same as a Shang dynsasty chariot sword in one of the museums here. I think however it is a copy but will take it to the museum to get checked out, as it could be a very old copy of the original, or even the original. I suspect however it is a copy but around a 100 years old. At the end of the week I will be going to the museum to confirm. I will keep you posted.


Thanks
Douglas
p.s.
It was actually good they did not contact me as I had to do my own research, this has given me much more knowledge than I would of gained by simply someone telling me what it was.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by fenlander

Hi Ian

Thanks for the help.
Actually dissapointingly none of them contacted me. However the good news is that I have found out what the Chinese sword is. It is either a replica or genuine Shang dynasty chariot sword. As I live in Taiwan it was not to hard to find out. It is exactly the same as a Shang dynsasty chariot sword in one of the museums here. I think however it is a copy but will take it to the museum to get checked out, as it could be a very old copy of the original, or even the original. I suspect however it is a copy but around a 100 years old. At the end of the week I will be going to the museum to confirm. I will keep you posted.


Thanks
Douglas
p.s.
It was actually good they did not contact me as I had to do my own research, this has given me much more knowledge than I would of gained by simply someone telling me what it was.

Hi Douglas:

As I'm sure you know already, there are many fakes/replicas of Chinese bronze swords around. This one does seem to have more age than many that we see on eBay. Possibly an earlier reproduction.

If it is the real thing, would you have to surrender it to the Government? I don't know the laws in Taiwan concerning Chinese antiquities, but I understand if it was real the (mainland) Chinese Government would not let it leave the country.

Ian.

[fenlander]

Hi Ian

Actually in Taiwan it is far more complicated. It was actually bought in China not Taiwan so it is very complicated. Although Taiwan is still a part of China (that is all under debate as you know of course). However I have been hesitating to take it to the museum for that reason (national palace museum). But as I am now fairly sure that it is a reproduction, (but I think a far earlier one than the norm) I am not so worried. One thing about Taiwan is that the law is very flexible depending how they get up in the morning or if the enforcer of the law has just had an argument with his wife. It is very flexible depending on who is enforcing it, and every department always sends you to another department.
I'll go to the museum on Friday.
regards
Douglas

[Mark]

There is a man in Taiwan who has an amazing collection of Chinese bronze swords, C.H. Wang. When I was visiting Longquan last winter, I got a look at a copy of a book/catalogue he wrote, which is absolutely gorgeous:

Wang, C.H. with Li Xueqin, Yang Hong, & Ma Chengyuan. Shang and Zhou Chinese Bronze Weaponry: The C.H. Wang Collection. Published by the Author, Taipei, Taiwan 1993.

Anyway, he might be an "unofficial" source that might help you confirm the age of that sword.

[fenlander]

Thank you very much. I will try to find out how to contact him. That is a good idea. I will also look for his book.

Regards

Douglas

[yuanzhumin]

Hi Everybody,
Doug, I also live in Taiwan and have a collection of antiques (Chinese, Taiwanese but mostly Taiwanese aboriginals). I bought some artworks/items and sold some abroad, and I didn't have any trouble. In fact, there is no law here in Taiwan to rule the export/import of antiques. I saw here, at antique shops, some statues or works referenced in books 15 years ago on their original location, a temple in a chinese remote province. They were stolen and finally sold here quasi-openly. The same with Khmer art 10 years ago when I saw litterally big pieces of the famous Angkor Wat sold also openly here, but I guess this kind of art has become so hot now that they would not dare do it again.
Anyway, Taiwan is an outcasted country because of its political situation with China. As the island has been refused the entrance to most of the international organisation(except the WTO - money and trade will always rule !), it has no obligation to follow most of the international law. Concerning the art and the national heritage, Taiwan would like to be a member of the UNESCO and sign all the international convention on the trade of arts, but China, that is a already member, is strictly opposed to it. So no way for Taiwan.
Anyway, authorities in Taiwan are very responsible, and even if they are not obliged to comply, they are still ususally following the international rules. But for the time on, there is no legal restriction on art import/export here.
yuanzhumin

[fenlander]

Thanks for the information. Are you in Taipei ? If so may be you could check out that sword for me ?? Anyway if you want to meet let me know.
You can contact me at
brassicaman@yahoo.com
Are you an expert in antique weapons as I would love to learn more


All the best
Douglas