Fighting with keris

David · 7th October 2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zartane

my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves..

I do have a question in regards to this legend. In my internet research (which can, of course be limited) the only reference i have been able to locate of Taming Sari being a person who dueled with Hang Tuah is fro a silat website:
http://www.silat.f9.co.uk/hangtuahintro.htm
There are, however, countless references to Taming Sari as being Hang Tuah's keris (the stories i am more familar with). Is this a legitimate variation on the legends or merely a modern silat misreading of the legends?
Again, this is the problem with using these legends to reach any academic conclusions on the actual origins and uses of the keris.

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2006, 06:52 AM

No David, I did not take that photo myself, my wife took it, and the bend in the wrist is to allow her get the pic.

I did these pics three times. I tried to get one of my sons who has Asian type hands, to hold the keris while I took the photo, but although it looked OK when I took the pics, when I got home and processed it, he had not got it quite right so I held the keris while my wife took the pics.

The previously published photos of this grip had one of my sons holding it, and it looks a lot more convincing.

Donn Draeger spent his life researching the way in which South East Asian weapons were actually used. If anybody was expert on this, then I think that perhaps Donn F. Draeger was that man. His remarks on the way in which a keris was used, when it was still an everyday weapon are interesting. He maintained that because the keris in Jawa had not been used as a common weapon for many, many years, and that since no documentation of methods of use existed, it simply was not possible for somebody living at the present time to truly know how the keris was held and used in Jawa when every man carried one as a weapon.

I cannot comment on the practicality or otherwise of the grip that I have shown, for use in silat applications.

I am not a silat practitioner, I have seen demonstrations, and I find it an admirable, athletic, and beautiful form of martial art which seems to require a very high degree of flexibility and extremely fast reflexes.

What I can comment on is the person who taught me this way to hold a keris.

This gentleman was a neighbour in Solo almost 40 years ago. He had worked as a "waste disposal contractor" during the period from the time the Japanese occupied Jawa until into at least the 1950's. His teachers were the sons and grandsons of the overseers and enforcers who were used by the Dutch. He was not a pencak silat teacher, he was a man who used elements of silat, kun tao, and other arts as his professional stock in trade. His objective was to avoid fights. He did not get paid for fighting. He did get paid for getting rid of the waste he been paid to get rid of. His preferred tool of trade was not a keris, but he had used a keris in his work. The way in which he taught me to hold a keris was the way in which he had been taught to hold a keris.

Perhaps the grip that I have shown photos of would be totally useless for pencak silat situations. I do not know, and have no foundation upon which to offer a comment. But this grip was used by one man at least who earnt his living with it, and by ensuring that others did not.

Although I cannot vouch personally for the efectiveness or otherwise of this grip, I can say that it is a very firm grip, because it effectively locks the blade into three pressure points in the hand:- the pinch between forefinger and thumb, and the first joint of the forefinger locked down onto the top of the gonjo.

I would suggest that if this grip is not applicable to use in pencak silat, then the obvious solution is not to use it.

But as to whether it was used in a practical situation or not, well, theoretically bumble bees cannot fly.

Pusaka · 11th October 2006, 02:39 PM

Here is a short clip about Pendekar Steven Benitez, the only real western Pendekar to my knowlage http://www.goldenlightstudios.com/gl...ari3=video_tfm

Rick · 11th October 2006, 03:15 PM

I'm sorry Pusaka ; I get no image; just the soundtrack .

Pusaka · 11th October 2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm sorry Pusaka ; I get no image; just the soundtrack .

Have no idea why, when I click on the link I get video and sound

Alam Shah · 11th October 2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm sorry Pusaka ; I get no image; just the soundtrack .

You'll need Adobe or Macromedia Flash Player...
http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/downl...ShockwaveFlash

Lew · 11th October 2006, 04:36 PM

Great video he is really good but I doubt that keris was 500 yrs old it looked more recent to me?

Lew

Pusaka · 11th October 2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Great video he is really good but I doubt that keris was 500 yrs old it looked more recent to me?

Lew

He did not say how old the keris was, he just said "its old"

When he referred to the Vedic period he was saying that the symbol of the winged horse has its origins in the pri Islamic Vedic period.

zartane · 12th October 2006, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I do have a question in regards to this legend. In my internet research (which can, of course be limited) the only reference i have been able to locate of Taming Sari being a person who dueled with Hang Tuah is fro a silat website:
http://www.silat.f9.co.uk/hangtuahintro.htm
There are, however, countless references to Taming Sari as being Hang Tuah's keris (the stories i am more familar with). Is this a legitimate variation on the legends or merely a modern silat misreading of the legends?
Again, this is the problem with using these legends to reach any academic conclusions on the actual origins and uses of the keris.

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

David · 12th October 2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zartane

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

Zartane, don't get me wrong, i enjoy a good story as well...just for the pleasure of it.

However, when you first brought this story to this thread you clearly were using it as a possible reason for a historical reality and not telling it as one of the many legends based on this story, but as a truth:
"my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves.."

That was my only issue, that stories like these should not be used to make a case for academic questions. I am still quite interested in this legend and i am still curious if your telling of the legend is particular to silat teachings since i have not hear this telling from any other source.

Kiai Carita · 24th October 2006, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zartane

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

Interesting legend... in Jawa itself there is no story of either a man or a keris called Taming Sari, and also the power in Jawa at the time of Malaka would have been Demak rather than Majapahit, would it not?

Notes from the Xeng He armada and olso from early Portugese adventurers tell about keris and tombak fighting, so it might be safe to assume that at that time keris fighting was normal. Wayang wong in Sriwedari also depicts keris fighting so there must have been some form of it some time. Just at the end of Demak, Arya Penangsang famousely kills himself by mistake with his own keris and Sutawijaya, founder of Mataram, is said to be so impressed by the valour of his enemy who had hisa stomach cut open and his intestines hanging over his keris that he started a tradition to put wreaths of jasmine on the handle of a groom's keris.

Sultan Agung gave kinatah Gajah-Singa to commemorate the defeat of the Bupati Pati by his forces and is also credited with creating the character Gendring Caluring (Buta Cakil) in wayang kulit - who inevitably gets killed by his own keris at the hands of Arjuna.

I have a feeling that this is the time we should look at to find why and when the Jawa keris stopped being imagined to be used in fighting. Sultan Agung then went on to attempt to sack Batavia but lost twice.

Pak Boedhi mentioned back, that in Yogyakarta kraton most keris are fixed to the handle using resin (dijabung) ... and also the small keris handle fits more snugly in the hand if one holds the keris between the thumb and forefinger, pinching the blumbangan. True, the larger Surakarta ukiran still alows this grip but it doesn't feel as right. With this grip I feel the keris is live and it does fit in to silat moves easily like a long feather of a crane or eagle.

Thank you all for the discussion and to those of you who are Muslim, selamat hari raya Idul Fitri, mohon ma'af lahir dan batin.

Bram.

Lew · 24th October 2006, 07:36 PM

Fighting with keris

Well this has become quite a long thread! So stop fighting with your keris and make up. Can't we all just get along

. I think fighting with wife can be even more deadly than keris

Lew

David · 24th October 2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Fighting with keris

I think fighting with wife can be even more deadly than keris

Lew

Sad but true Lew, sad but true...

24th October 2006, 07:36 PM	#12
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	On the lighter side Fighting with keris Well this has become quite a long thread! So stop fighting with your keris and make up. Can't we all just get along . I think fighting with wife can be even more deadly than keris Lew

9th October 2006, 06:52 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	No David, I did not take that photo myself, my wife took it, and the bend in the wrist is to allow her get the pic. I did these pics three times. I tried to get one of my sons who has Asian type hands, to hold the keris while I took the photo, but although it looked OK when I took the pics, when I got home and processed it, he had not got it quite right so I held the keris while my wife took the pics. The previously published photos of this grip had one of my sons holding it, and it looks a lot more convincing. Donn Draeger spent his life researching the way in which South East Asian weapons were actually used. If anybody was expert on this, then I think that perhaps Donn F. Draeger was that man. His remarks on the way in which a keris was used, when it was still an everyday weapon are interesting. He maintained that because the keris in Jawa had not been used as a common weapon for many, many years, and that since no documentation of methods of use existed, it simply was not possible for somebody living at the present time to truly know how the keris was held and used in Jawa when every man carried one as a weapon. I cannot comment on the practicality or otherwise of the grip that I have shown, for use in silat applications. I am not a silat practitioner, I have seen demonstrations, and I find it an admirable, athletic, and beautiful form of martial art which seems to require a very high degree of flexibility and extremely fast reflexes. What I can comment on is the person who taught me this way to hold a keris. This gentleman was a neighbour in Solo almost 40 years ago. He had worked as a "waste disposal contractor" during the period from the time the Japanese occupied Jawa until into at least the 1950's. His teachers were the sons and grandsons of the overseers and enforcers who were used by the Dutch. He was not a pencak silat teacher, he was a man who used elements of silat, kun tao, and other arts as his professional stock in trade. His objective was to avoid fights. He did not get paid for fighting. He did get paid for getting rid of the waste he been paid to get rid of. His preferred tool of trade was not a keris, but he had used a keris in his work. The way in which he taught me to hold a keris was the way in which he had been taught to hold a keris. Perhaps the grip that I have shown photos of would be totally useless for pencak silat situations. I do not know, and have no foundation upon which to offer a comment. But this grip was used by one man at least who earnt his living with it, and by ensuring that others did not. Although I cannot vouch personally for the efectiveness or otherwise of this grip, I can say that it is a very firm grip, because it effectively locks the blade into three pressure points in the hand:- the pinch between forefinger and thumb, and the first joint of the forefinger locked down onto the top of the gonjo. I would suggest that if this grip is not applicable to use in pencak silat, then the obvious solution is not to use it. But as to whether it was used in a practical situation or not, well, theoretically bumble bees cannot fly.

11th October 2006, 02:39 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Here is a short clip about Pendekar Steven Benitez, the only real western Pendekar to my knowlage http://www.goldenlightstudios.com/gl...ari3=video_tfm

11th October 2006, 03:15 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	I'm sorry Pusaka ; I get no image; just the soundtrack .

11th October 2006, 04:36 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Great video he is really good but I doubt that keris was 500 yrs old it looked more recent to me? Lew